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The Demiurg v4
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=123&t=7479		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Xisor [ Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:28 am ]
Post subject:  The Demiurg v4
See what you think! I've not yet added an appeals chart, nor have I included the defences, but they're being worked on. I've also constructed another model of a Demiurg for Inquisitor, slightly better skilled this time, unfortunately I still don't have pics of it at the moment!

http://savefile.com/downloa....1335f6d

See what you all think, I'd love to hear thoughts back!

Xisor
Author:  blackhorizon [ Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:27 am ]
Post subject:  The Demiurg v4
Overall:
Good job Xisor, it looks really good, nicely done, definitely a worthy asset to the three gaming systems.

Typo:
On page 2 it says Battlfleet Gothic, missing an e.

Layout:
For a better overall look make sure the text lines out at the right side of the paper, looks better. On the Demiurg in a warband page (last Inquisitor page) the used font is smaller. Changing the font to times new roman would make it more GW?esque.

Background story:
Impressive, well done, nice touch to include the Kareshi Expanse.

Inquisitor:
Background is most important in this case. Can?t really comment on the rules but the equipment seems very well taught of.

Epic Armageddon:
Don?t play it so?

Battlefleet Gothic:




Also, post this piece of art at the relevant Inquisitor and Epic places (SG site for example) as the article isn't BFG-only.
Author:  blackhorizon [ Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:21 am ]
Post subject:  The Demiurg v4
Battlefleet Gothic:

Victory Points
15% extra against Orks, all ships
15% extra against all other races, capital ships only
Wording could be a bit clearer in my humble opinion. Now it is mentioned in the designer notes.

Citadel vs Stronghold
The difference is:
+ 100pts (450 pts versus 350 pts.)
+ 2 Hitpoints
+ 2 Cutting Beam
+ 6 Launch Bays

Based from Smotherman (not official but okay) the hitpoints & launch bays account for 112 pts. So one should suspect the Citadel to be at least 115 pts more expensive then the Stronghold. Or are those 15 points drawn back because of the heavier fleet restriction?

Rampart
Quite strong little vessel I must say! I would say that the points should be upped a little ~5pts or that it should get a stricter restriction on the fleet list.

Butress
Also strong, compared to a Chaos infidel +5pts, +1 Cutting Beam, +1 Turret, 45* turn instead of 90*, -5cm.

Fleet re-rolls
Are fleet re-rolls assigned to specific ships for purpose of calculating victory points?

Brotherhood
Really cool concept! Anyway, how does it work in a campaign? Roll for each battle or only once in the campaign (eg the moment you get a Brotherhood).

Renown
The ranking names should be more ?Brotherhood? like. Not names from an Imperial viewpoint imo.

Refits
I noticed a refit to store blastmarkers for a turbo boost (call it KITT  :D ). Why no refit to store blastmarkers for the Cutting Beam? Not that an issue, just a thought that came to my mind.

Modelling guides/tips
In case of the Citadel, Garrison, Rampart & Butress it would be really cool if you added a ?modelling page?. Tips to build them, which model to use etc.. The Epic & Inquisitor players would also like this I think.
Author:  Xisor [ Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  The Demiurg v4
Battlefleet Gothic:

Victory Points
15% extra against Orks, all ships
15% extra against all other races, capital ships only
Wording could be a bit clearer in my humble opinion. Now it is mentioned in the designer notes.

I agree, concisifying things is probably a good idea!


Citadel vs Stronghold
The difference is:
+ 100pts (450 pts versus 350 pts.)
+ 2 Hitpoints
+ 2 Cutting Beam
+ 6 Launch Bays

Based from Smotherman (not official but okay) the hitpoints & launch bays account for 112 pts. So one should suspect the Citadel to be at least 115 pts more expensive then the Stronghold. Or are those 15 points drawn back because of the heavier fleet restriction?

I can't argue that reasoning. There wasn't a particular analysis on things as I'm entirely winging it on points values. For someone doing Theoretical Physics at uni...the Smotherman Formula still is alien to me!

Rampart
Quite strong little vessel I must say! I would say that the points should be upped a little ~5pts or that it should get a stricter restriction on the fleet list.

I hadn't realised that. My thinking on it was always that "no-one'd put more'n one in a Squadron", but that's me thinking that, not anyone else! I'm content to see it's price go up, but I'd be keen to see what you think of a 0-1/Squadron rule?


Butress
Also strong, compared to a Chaos infidel +5pts, +1 Cutting Beam, +1 Turret, 45* turn instead of 90*, -5cm.

It also benefits from the full Demiurg rules. I feel that the 45* and -5cm compensate roughly for the increased turret and cutting beam, whilst the +5pts is enough to justify the Demiurg Rules.

Fleet re-rolls
Are fleet re-rolls assigned to specific ships for purpose of calculating victory points?

Yes, that should be clarified! Woops.

Brotherhood
Really cool concept! Anyway, how does it work in a campaign? Roll for each battle or only once in the campaign (eg the moment you get a Brotherhood).

Cheers, I don't recall the exact source of the inspiration for the rule, but I have a suspicion it's archived in GothiComms and that it was largely due to the input of lots of folks here, rather than 'my idea'. I've added into the the Fleet List that you roll for them *once* in a campaign, not for each battle.

Renown
The ranking names should be more ?Brotherhood? like. Not names from an Imperial viewpoint imo.

But that means I'll end up with Warlords, Living Ancestors, Engineers Guilds and Trikes! . I'll investigate that idea, any suggestions?

Refits
I noticed a refit to store blastmarkers for a turbo boost (call it KITT  :D ). Why no refit to store blastmarkers for the Cutting Beam? Not that an issue, just a thought that came to my mind.

Not for any particular reason I'm afraid, any in the refits that you'd say could do with being replaced/outfitted with this style? [The Ghnyght Rhydr brotherhood?]

Modelling guides/tips
In case of the Citadel, Garrison, Rampart & Butress it would be really cool if you added a ?modelling page?. Tips to build them, which model to use etc.. The Epic & Inquisitor players would also like this I think.

I agree one bazillion percent. However, I need to get Ray Bell to produce the article for the Citadel and Garrison, as I've not actually built them yet (Poor student budget...). That said, if anyone ever feels like trying their hand...

On a side note, the next phase I'm looking at for the article is essentially this:

Inquisitor
Modelling. I've done two Demiurg models now, one substantially better than the other. I really would like to get a dialogue on exactly what kind of 'style' works nicest for them, even seeing if I can't harrangue someone at Games Workshop Studio into trying their hand having seen the look I'm going for...

Additionally, I intend to do a proper bit of background with properly developed Characters on either the Envoy (the Demiurg in the majority of the fluff so far) or the Technician (a Demiurg that liased with the Tau in the Medusa V campaign), or some other one I can think of. (Also thinking of 'The Analyst' and 'The Janitor')

Epic Armageddon

I'm going for the proper Gothic-steam-punk-archaic-kick-ass Demiurg style with the next bit: A Demiurg Titan (or more accurately, a Demiurg torpedo  :;): )

Battlefleet Gothic

As you know, my next thinking here is 'Defenses'. I'm quite pleased with the few I've made, and I may even try and tie in a few more mentions to the Kareshi Expanse in the Defenses list (I'm still a fan of the Tobari being a Demiurg automaton 'race' that arose after the deaths/loss/overthrow of the local brotherhood...). I've got a few neater pencil sketches (having seen my MS Paint sketches, you know I'm no artist!) for the stations, which I should be able to develop at somepoint.

Additionally, as you say, a modelling section'd be great. Buttress is easy, with the Rampart only slightly more difficult. The Garrison and the Citadel were, though, Ray B's collection, so he should have the honour(nay, responsibility!  :p )

Finally, harking back just slightly: on the Campaign Renown titling, it's not really *just* an Imperial perspective. It could be Ork (turn knowledge to 'fear'  :p ), it could be Tau, Chaos, Rebel, Kroot, Eldar....
Author:  Yuber Okami [ Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:59 am ]
Post subject:  The Demiurg v4
Count my vote for that modelling section!
Author:  Yuber Okami [ Mon May 14, 2007 9:52 am ]
Post subject:  The Demiurg v4
Xisor, a question arised yesterday about the demiurg BFG rules: does all the demiurg ordnance get an speed of 30 cm? i say so because a lot of people told me that this should be an errata (because of the slower standard bombers)
Author:  Zhai_Morenn [ Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:  The Demiurg v4
EDIT: I am looking at the 4.1 rules mate, not the 4.0

Another question for ya Xisor, and that's in regard to the Demiurg refits.

Under Armaments and Defence Refits, item 1- Specialized Macrotechnology outfit.
a few questions actually
--Do you pay the same amount of point for a brotherhood to bring this upgrade to a ship regardless of size as in ignore the extra cost of torp bombers or special torps?  (A Citadel comes with a Brotherhoood which confers a refit automatically without extra cost so if I get Specialized Macrotechnology Outfit could I just upgrade all my bombers to being able to be torp bombers for no extra cost?)
--If one selects the special torpedo option, are they limited by the same restrictions as in the back of the Armada book?  Can you have unlimited Melta Torps or Vortex torps?  If you get these do you have enough for one salvo from each launch system on multi torpbay ships like the Citadel?  Does the Demiurg player get to choose the torpedo type?  (For instance, wanting Barrage Bombs for a planetary assault?)
Author:  Xisor [ Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:03 pm ]
Post subject:  The Demiurg v4
Right, I'm busy updating bits and bobs in the 4.2 edition of the rules. Need to codify the fluff relating to the Benefactor (a Demiurg I used at this years Spring Conclave Inquisitor event at Warhammer World, which in turn inspired an excellent modeller to make a proper-cool Demiurg model!), and also a story detailing the Technician, the Demiurg whose (apparent) description entered into GW canon last summer during the Medusa V campaign! Of course, they can overturn that as they please, but it is still something!

Now, to these questions!

Yuber Okami

You've been misinformed. All Demiurg ordnance goes at the normal speeds. I've added in a bit in the Demiurg BFG Special Rules specifically entitled "Ordnance" to clarify this.

Zhai_Morenn
Do you pay the same price?
Yes. It'll either come as a refit or via a Brotherhood outfit/refit. However...
If one selects the special torpedo option, are they limited by the same restrictions as in the back of the Armada book?  Can you have unlimited Melta Torps or Vortex torps?  If you get these do you have enough for one salvo from each launch system on multi torpbay ships like the Citadel?  Does the Demiurg player get to choose the torpedo type?  (For instance, wanting Barrage Bombs for a planetary assault?)

I've come around from my original thinking on this matter.  
- The Demiurg simply chooses whether to take torpedo bombers, or special torpedoes.
- Torpedo Bombers are in addition to normal Bombers, not in place of them.
- Specialist Torpedoes are subject to the normal rules, otherwise, but the only cost involved is in the refit/brotherhood, and it is always present.
- To be considered: The Demiurg an opt to change which one they have between games by simply rolling again. This new roll stands, until after the next game.

I think that's it for the questions!

Some other notes

Garrisons and Bastions: I really feel these aught to be 6HP cruisers, Ld9, reduces to Ld5 with damage as normal. Why? Well, they're significantly smaller than your average cruiser. A bit thinner and flimsier, to be perfectly honest. However, I'd similarly be tempted to put up their shield/turret value and not move their cost about much. Any thoughts on this plan of action?

That's everything for now, just sorting my way through 4.2 now.
Author:  Zhai_Morenn [ Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:03 pm ]
Post subject:  The Demiurg v4
Hmmmmm, the increase in turrets would provide the cruisers with better ordnance defense and the idea of more shields is nice, especially if the ship is kitted out for additional shield and turret refits due to brotherhood upgrades...  I am still unsure of 6 hits though, after all other advanced races have seemingly flimsy ships that are truly resilient (scythes for necs).  

I think I would sooner keep the hits, shields and turrets as they are.  As costly as such a ship would be, I'd rather it not be crippled after 3 hits.  Certainly the Eldar and FW tau ships have similar amounts of hits but the Eldar have holofields which grant them near immunity to ordnance and lances and the FW Tau Protectors are about average cost of IN or Chaos cruiser.

Oh and one more question for clarification:  Garrisons come with Exterminator legions by default, does that mean the default embarked brotherhood accounts for that refit or do they get to further enhance the ship?
Author:  Otterman [ Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  The Demiurg v4

(Xisor @ Sep. 21 2006,09:00)
QUOTE
I agree, concisifying things is probably a good idea!

'Concisifying' is a perfectly cromulent word that embiggens the English language.
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