Space Marines and Balance |
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Archer
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Post subject: Space Marines and Balance  Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:06 pm |
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Admiral d'Artagnan said:
Unless you understand that probabilities are not the all and be all of games like this and that it is just a tool that aids, don't try to argue about what is balanced. In checking for balance, it's simple: how many times does a race win a game or not. |
Read the Last Word at: http://www.specialist-games.com/LastWord.asp#TomA
Particularly the last three paragraphs.
IMO SMs shouldn't win half of their games, unless they are all Space Mariney missions (primarily Exterminatus and Planetary Assault). If playing a general fleet engagement, they should be a challenge to play and have trouble winnning unless the player is really good. They need to provide a challenge, and definately steer clear of the 40K "SMs are good at everything" approach (which IMO makes 40K such a horrible game).
Also, win-loss ratio means nothing. What if a stats site was setup for BFG. All the poor Eldar players, players who play with little to no phenonmenon, or players making their fleets challenging to play (say, by using Solarises) report their battles, but victorious Eldar players don't bother? If the Eldar W-L ratio is 1:4 do the Eldar need to be made better?
What if excellent SM players and players that only play planetary assault and exterminatus with their SM fleet report all their battles, but those who are poor with the SMs and try to use them like a battlefleet don't? The SMs end up with a 4:1 W-L ratio, does this mean the SM fleet needs to be dumbed-down?
SMs don't fit (and should never fit) most BFG scenarios. They are specialists at delivering their cargo to planets or destroying them from space, they should stay like that. Leave protecting the space lanes to the IN.
Note: Not saying they shouldn't have more shields on their BBs or some more options, just that SMs are (IMO) the perfect fleet to make challenging since they don't fit BFG well in the first place. Not every fleet needs to be balanced to be useful.
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Xisor
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Post subject: Space Marines and Balance Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 5:11 pm |
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Thats a lot of what ifs. I don't think the SMs need to be dumbed down, it's not as if they're complex to play. Simply difficult, unreasonably so.
IMO making the SMs a viable fleet is not a difficult thing to do, and it would not require brakes of their fluff, or really from their character. A bit more 'power' in their WBs(FP5 for the SC, FP14 for the BB), and 'up' on the shields of the BB and a few other tweaks and they'd be perfectly manageable. I don't think it's fair to have them 'poor' when they really shouldn't be. Unlike Kroot fleets, who should be archetypally 'shoddy' in space(and IMO they are, reliable, but not exactly works of wonder and awe...) they don't need to be useless. The current Kroot Warsphere fits what you propose. Unfortunately the offshoot of it is I've only used it once or twice when I thought it'd be a laugh, and it was. However, what it was not was useful. And until it's better I really don't think it warrants a place in my fleet.
I understand what you say, or at least I think I do, I just don't think it should be poor 'just because'. Difficult;yes please, useless/unplayable; No thanks.
Xisor
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Admiral d'Artagnan
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Post subject: Space Marines and Balance Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:01 pm |
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So if SMs shouldn't win half their games most of the times, does this mean they should lose their games all the time?
While SMs should excel in specific scenarios like Planetary Assault or Exteminatus, unfortunately, even in those scenarios, they perform poorly. Why? Because people do not bring a balanced fleet against them. They bring a ton of lances. Fix that or fix the SM. As I said, they have given up a lot in terms of firepower and/or range, a regular cruiser, amount of AC and shields and turrets. And for this they only gained half a ship's worth of armor. I say only because that's the only directly useful attribute the SMs got.
Again, Ld is nice but can it do direct damage or prevent damage other than BFI-ing which is really a double edged sword? Boarding and H&R, can they do direct damage? And can SM even survive to get close enough to do them? The TH, sure all their ships have them but can they survive enough to be offensively effective and note they can't really do direct damage?
SMs lose a lot already and even experts will find them difficult to play against an all lance fleet. What the addition of the shield does is just help them survive some more turns. Even against that all lance fleet that one additional shield and turret really won't change the tide so much. But it will help.
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mageboltrat
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Post subject: Space Marines and Balance Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:59 am |
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What are points for if not to make sure a battle is even. I find it mad to say an army should lose most of the time, because they are not meant to be good in a fight in space... Well Ork ships aren't meant to be good. Should they lose all the time, or should they get more ships?
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rowanalpha
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Post subject: Space Marines and Balance Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:11 pm |
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You know, if your opponent is maxing out lances against you, tell they you're going to play Eldar and then show up and discover you "mistakenly" brought you SMs instead.
Seriously though, its a game, and if someone is so intent on winning at the expense of their opponent having fun, play somebody else.
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Xisor
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Post subject: Space Marines and Balance Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:29 pm |
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I really just don't think thats the case. Most fleets are reasonably balanced. Against Necrons, a mix of weapons is useful, but really, you can do okay with a slight imbalance. When against the Eldar or Marines, it's simply foolish, if you know in advance, to take Gothics against Eldar or extensive weapon battery ships against Marines.
Whats the point in playing if you don't intend to at least try and win. And unless you're playing against someone incompetent, you tend not to choose to shoot yourself in the foot. Or at least I don't.
If a fleet was properly balanced, it wouldn't matter which fleet format you use, unfortunately taking all Gothics against Eldar or all Swords against Marines...it's a bit of a silly tactic. Good for a fun game, but would you take it normally?
I wouldn't most the folks I know wouldn't and I can't think of many people who would.
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Admiral d'Artagnan
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Post subject: Space Marines and Balance Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:25 pm |
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| Quote (rowanalpha @ 09 Dec. 2005 (14:11)) | You know, if your opponent is maxing out lances against you, tell they you're going to play Eldar and then show up and discover you "mistakenly" brought you SMs instead.
Seriously though, its a game, and if someone is so intent on winning at the expense of their opponent having fun, play somebody else. |
Of course having fun is paramount. But telling yourself you're having fun when you lose 9 times out of 10 starts to get old after the first few times, you know.
Now you're saying play someone else. Really, it's not the players that are at fault here. Any player worth his salt will choose ships that will give him the advantage over his opponent's fleet, unless it's a reaaally friendly game. The problem is in the game system. Either you force everyone to bring in a mix of weapon systems everytime or you can fix the problematic race. The former, you lose a bit of freedom and a lot of tactical opportunity. The latter is much easier to do.
And what can you really do other than ask your opponent to bring a fleet balanced with different weapons next time but knowing that if ever a serious game is on the line, a lance heavy fleet will always be the bane of your fleet?
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rowanalpha
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Post subject: Space Marines and Balance Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:49 am |
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And what can you really do other than ask your opponent to bring a fleet balanced with different weapons next time but knowing that if ever a serious game is on the line, a lance heavy fleet will always be the bane of your fleet? |
I think the solution is for neither player to know ahead of time what the other is bringing. If you're like me and have two or more fleets, simply descide on a points total and bring whichever fleet you want to play. This way you'r opponent can't max out against you.
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Xisor
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Post subject: Space Marines and Balance Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:04 am |
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Or, the fleets could be balanced themselves. Surely that, at least, would allow an opponent to be sure of both:
1) a fun game
2) not playing against the same fleet he hasn't been able to beat for the last 17 games...
Ie, play against a different fleet first, or organise things to give a good game, but without having to resort to secrecy and such. I just don't see why we can't balanced the Marines. Really, I see no valid reason against it. Sure, there is the argument against the need for 'paramount balance', but that's questioning one of the most basic axioms we have in games, so I'm willing to disregard it all until someone pishes the point.
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Hellebore
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Post subject: Space Marines and Balance Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:14 pm |
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It's very hard to balance fleets when some (like eldar) have very specific disadvantages against certain weapons.
the only way to make it truely balanced is to make every ship vulnerable in the same way so that no one weapon holds sway.
So if SMs shouldn't win half their games most of the times, does this mean they should lose their games all the time?
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You are putting words into his mouth. By saying they should not win all the time does not simply mean they LOSE all the time- that is pseudologic.
Unfortunately in games, everything MUST be balanced to provide equal ability for each player to win.
If we stuck to abslutes in terms of fluff, CWE would only ever show up when their farseers almost certainly GUARANTEED victory. It would be something like "On a 2+ the eldar win the engagement- on a 1 fight a battle as normal".
The tyranids would have at least 2x as many ships, and orks would just keep coming.
So for the sake of the game I would make them balanced, however I do not think that marines (except chapters like the ultramarines) are equipped to perform sector patrols effectively.
hellebore
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Admiral d'Artagnan
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Post subject: Space Marines and Balance Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:30 am |
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No, I am not putting words into his mouth. The fact is SMs lose. Period. ?That's why I asked if they _should_ lose most of their games, because that is what is happening right now, including the scenarios suited to them.
The SM are not even comparable to Eldar as even Eldar have a form of protection against WBs which is the column shift and their MS Movement. The SM have little protection against lances. The SMs even with adding that one shield to their cap ships, are still vulnerable to lances. Their closest race would be the Necrons and we know how vastly superior Necrons are.
And note, he was saying the SM should not win even half of their games and those that they win should be the scenarios tailored to their supposed strengths, and to a certain extent I agree, but as I said, even in those scenarios, the SMs are at a disadvantage and are already challenged. They start dying even before their ships can get within range of the planet they intend to invade or exterminate.
You wnt to see how hard they have it? Here's something so basic: which do you fire first, the WBs or the BCs?
I would rather the UM players say whether or not they should be able to patrol their home sector effectively.
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Hellebore
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Post subject: Space Marines and Balance Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:31 am |
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Oh please, you specifically said by him saying they should not win more than half their games that it meant they should lose ALL their games- so you DID put words in his mouth.
1/2 does not equal all.
secondly, just by simply PLAYING an army does not make one an instant expert or even a knowledgeable player, it just means you play the army.
I know of people that pick an army based on the ability to win, and the ease of constructing beardy forces, and they couldn't give a frag about whether the army could defend its own home sector.
I have studied the background of this game for many years and play almost all its armies (BFG fleets, epic and 40k) I don't play ultramarines but i have an intimate knowledge of how their organisation works.
And if you actually read my post instead of simply assuming I was saying everything you said was wrong, you would realise that I was AGREEING with you.
Space marine fleets should be balanced, and if they aren't they need to be.
HOWEVER, he was not wrong either, as the Codex Astartes places SEVERE restrictions on space marine fleet assets as they are not supposed to be able to be a proper naval force.
this is even stated in the BFG marine fleet background- their ships are supposed to drop them off and bombard the planet not make huge circuits through a sector and protect shipping.
I agree that their ships could hold their own in a fleet engagement (this is amply shown in the Battle for Macragge- but this is an ultramarine engagement and they are better equipped for sector patrolling due to CONTROLING a sector), but I also agree that most marine chapters do not have the resources to perform said sector sweeps nor is it their perview to do so.
In essence;
Balance = good
sector patrol = bad
hellebore
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The_Real_Chris
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Post subject: Space Marines and Balance Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:25 am |
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I think they do have the resources for sector sweeps. Consider the Imperium does this with Dauntlesses. Are you saying the Dauntless is a bad ship?
Advancing in the 'open' towards a planet is an exciting form of suicide for any fleet (especially with my Nove Cannon squadron sitting stationary in orbit).
Put some stuff in that obscured line of sight and you have more of a game. The marine player then has to advance in a certain clever fashion, go hell for leather over the last mile smashing anything in the way and do the mission.
I have an excellent record in 'marine missions' winning over 2/3's of my battles against Imperials and Chaos. Do I wreck their fleet? Nope, not often, but I win the game often with no dead cap ships (they disengage when near death).
I should add here that all our games were very cap ship death light. People would cheerfully disengage the little darlings rather than have they suicide on 1 hit point. Not to say casulaties didn't happen. Frequently they would herald the turning point of the battle and a mass disengage by the mauled fleet.
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Admiral d'Artagnan
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Post subject: Space Marines and Balance Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:31 am |
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| Quote (Hellebore @ 13 Dec. 2005 (07:31)) | |
Oh please, you specifically said by him saying they should not win more than half their games that it meant they should lose ALL their games- so you DID put words in his mouth. |
No I asked if they should lose their games. There's a difference. I asked because they are losing their games, if not all of the time, then most of the time. It is happening right now. See the difference?
And if you actually read my post instead of simply assuming I was saying everything you said was wrong, you would realise that I was AGREEING with you. |
I did notice that you were agreeing with me. I just wanted to clear up that one point.
HOWEVER, he was not wrong either, as the Codex Astartes places SEVERE restrictions on space marine fleet assets as they are not supposed to be able to be a proper naval force.
this is even stated in the BFG marine fleet background- their ships are supposed to drop them off and bombard the planet not make huge circuits through a sector and protect shipping.
And yes, I also agree that they should not be a proper naval force. The problem is even now, they are not a proper invasion/planetary assault force. They die too easy and so my idea that they should get additional shields and turrets.
I agree that their ships could hold their own in a fleet engagement (this is amply shown in the Battle for Macragge- but this is an ultramarine engagement and they are better equipped for sector patrolling due to CONTROLING a sector), but I also agree that most marine chapters do not have the resources to perform said sector sweeps nor is it their perview to do so.
In essence;
Balance = good
sector patrol = bad
hellebore
As I said, I will leave it to the UM players to say whether they should be able to patrol their sectors or not.
