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Observations on Fleet Creation

 Post subject: Observations on Fleet Creation
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 3:21 am 
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Having played BFG for quite a while and seen lots of player made material pop up online over the years, I wanted to start a discussion about what are and aren't good practices for creating ships, fleets, races, and rules.

COPYING RULES IN OTHER SYSTEMS: BAD
I'm going to try to avoid ranting here, but this needs to be said: Just because an army has something in 40K, doesn't mean it should have it in BFG.

I keep seeing lists pop up where someone will say something like they have a great Blood Angels list and they have some rule where the strike cruisers turn into Death Company strike cruisers on a 6+ at the beginning of the game and gain a 4+ save against each hit scored on them, completely ignoring the fact that the rule makes no sense in the context of spaceships.

Space marine variant lists are the biggest culprits of this (No, Battle Barges cannot be Intractible, Stubborn, Red Thirsty, True Gritty, etc.) It is important to capture the army's flavor, but it must be correctly applied in the scope of the game system.

SIMPLICITY: GOOD
BFG is an incredibly simple and elegant game system.  The key to this is that every fleet uses the same core, but the tweaks it just a little.  Think for a second about any two fleets and consider how they are the same.

All fleets have some forms of weapons batteries, lances, torpedoes, fighters, bombers, engines, shields etc.  True, their batteries might hit on a 4+, or cause a fire when they crit, or ignore shields on a 6, but it's still a weapons battery.

A weapon that "causes a point of damage on a 5+, or on a 6+ if the ship is moving away, but with a +1 modifier if facing the sunward edge and rerolling misses if it the third Tuesday after the vernal equinox" might be a perfect rendition of how you see your alien race's weapons working, but it does no good if your opponent's head explodes as you try to explain it to him. (or maybe that was your plan...)

Always ask yourself, "Can I make this simpler?"

NOT UNDERSTANDING THE FLEET/SPECIES/ARMY: BAD
Here's the key example: Seddito Oppremere.  One of the aspects of the Space Marine list it that lances are limited in numbers and fielded only on escorts, another is that space marine ships carry shorter range weapons, but the SO broke both these rules by having 4 60 cm lances on each side.

If you want to occasionally break a rule, that's fine, but do it in a way that is minor and don't break more than one rule at a time.  For instance: If you want to design a chaos cruiser with torpedoes, give it a str 4 salvo instead of 6, don't also give it a enhanced engine, and make sure to cost it correctly.

If you want to do something wierd, make up a new race and don't try to jam the square peg in the round hole.


I look forward to your replies and opinions.
Peace

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 Post subject: Observations on Fleet Creation
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 3:55 am 
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Copying stuff from other systems is not necessarily bad. I can make up some stuff for a codex SM army for example and it would come out nice but would that mean it is true to the codex of the army? Hence, in my Space Wolf fleet list, I tried to get a feel for the fleet list they might have and tried to see what can be useful or what might not be. I could take long range weapons and stick it to the Space Wolves list or Black Templars list. But would that be fluffy? That's why getting ideas from other game systems can also be helpful.It doesn't mean that it's final. That's why we place it here to hear comments from others.

Also I do know that one can't directly import the characteristics of one game system to another but one can get the feel of some of the rules and try to integrate it into the other game system.

I put up the list and after reading the comments from some people, I changed some things to make it simpler. Sometimes one just gets engrossed in one's work so much that one doesn't realize one is missing a simpler method.

As to the last part true, not understanding is bad and that's why I limited myself to the SW list because that is also my army in 40k and I think I have a feel for it. I am not commenting so much on the DA and BT characteristics and limiting only my comments to the ship designs because i don't really know the ins and outs of those 2 Chpaters.


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 Post subject: Observations on Fleet Creation
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:00 pm 
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rowanalpha, Good post, and I totally agree!

If you are going to import a special rule from 40K (or Epic!, or Inquisitor!!!:;): ) make sure it is to scale, and if there ends up being no impact on the game, there is no special rule! E.g. BT's 'possibly' only giving the enemy a +1 boarding mod when crippled instead of a 2+, this represents the way they are fired up by the lose of comrades and the fact there are more SM's on your typical SC (but many of them won't be full brothers).

Using BT Vows wouldn't have any Impact on the game other than in a Boarding action and even then it would be insignificant to the scale of BFG. But to keep with the theme of the Chapter you can 'combine' it with other affects (Sword Bretheren! and having more SM's on a BB) to give a +1 boarding mod on a ship where Sword Bretheren are taken.

Cheers,

RayB

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 Post subject: Observations on Fleet Creation
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 3:53 pm 
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Agreed Rowanalpha.

But if you design a specific list there must be a 'fluff' add in the rules to make them stand out.

I agree with RayB on the BT vows, that's impossible in BFG, but thinking about it isn't bad. You should always approach something as wide as possible and from that drill down to what is necessary. At least that's what I do...sometimes...

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 Post subject: Observations on Fleet Creation
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:40 am 
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I think that there is a big difference here between copying a rule from another system, and being inspired by it. It is OK to say that 'this rule is characteristic of this race' as long as you put it in context. A rule can work in a completely different way in Gothic and still be 'the same' as the rule effects in another system.

The simplicity issue is one that agree with the most. Too many vessels emerge with the 'super death ray' or great bit of kit. Breaking the rules and ideals of the game in a minor way is fine, but in the end the three basic types of weapons were designed to abstract out to pretty much any gun you could imagine, exactly so you would not need to create loads of different rules.

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 Post subject: Observations on Fleet Creation
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 6:00 am 
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Yay for Rowanalpha:p

This is why BFG is soooo GOOD! Its simplicity.

I was trying to explain why it was soooo good to a friend, and I came to the following conclusions:

In a game like EPIC or 40K every unit/army has many many rules it requires, and many of those are exceptions to the core rules.

In BFG you can create the same kind of flavour and character by simply changing ONE thing. As there are so few variables (when compared to 40k) changing a single thing (like making ork heavy gunz cause 2 pts of damage, or making eldar WB count as closing) stands out much more as it alters the fleet in a very direct way.

In  40k changing 1 rule may not do much as it is 1 in 100, while changing 1 rule in BFG makes a big difference (like changing 1 in 10).

So when ever I come to a fleet, I always start with a very simple set of tweaks, and only get more serious if those simple changes don't show through enough.

You should only bring out the Vow of the super mega death ray BT forge ship when your boarding mod or your Ld mod doesn't do the job.

hellebore

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