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Space Marine Strike Cruisers
blackhorizon
 Post subject: Space Marine Strike Cruisers
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:34 pm 
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Okay, copied from the Space Wolves list & the Black Templar list. Two Space Marine Strike Cruiser Assault variants.

Both differ in weapon layout. Is that what we want? In my opinion not. In the end this will be to confusing. If we can keep a variant always the same that's best and most likely to be accepted.
Special Rules will make chapters stand out, but in cases as this keeping things the same will be best IMHO.

Space Wolves

Space Marine Assault Cruiser: 160 points***
Type/Hits: Cruiser/6
Speed: 25 cm
Turns: 90
Shields: 2
Armour: 6+
Turrets: 2

Armament | Range/Speed | Firepower/Str | Fire Arc
Port Launch Bays | Thunderhawk: 20cm | 1 squadron | -
Starboard Launch Bays | Thunderhawk: 20cm | 1 squadron | -
Prow Launch Bays | Thunderhawk: 20cm | 2 squadron | -
Prow Bombardment Cannon | 30cm | 3 | Left/Front/Right

Special Rules: for every variant cruiser, you must have 1 standard cruiser

Black Templars

Space Marine Assault Cruiser: 165 points***
Type/Hits: Cruiser/6
Speed: 25 cm
Turns: 90
Shields: 1
Armour: 6+
Turrets: 2

Armament | Range/Speed | Firepower/Str | Fire Arc
Port weapon batteries | Thunderhawk: 20cm | 3 | L
Starboard weapon batteries | Thunderhawk: 20cm | 3 | R
Prow Launch Bays | Thunderhawk: 20cm | 3 squadron | -
Prow Bombardment Cannon | 30cm | 2 | Left/Front/Right

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Admiral d'Artagnan
 Post subject: Space Marine Strike Cruisers
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:33 am 
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I think you meant port and starboard launch bays for the BT version. Xaber's version had 2 squadrons per side but I don't really think that works because if that were the case then the Assault Barge would have 4 per side for a total of 11 THs. I don't think so. That's why I dropped it to 1 squadron per side for my version.
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Admiral d'Artagnan
 Post subject: Space Marine Strike Cruisers
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:53 am 
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Might as well put this in her as well.

Space Marine Siege Cruiser: 190 points****
Type/Hits: Cruiser/6
Speed: 25 cm
Turns: 90
Shields: 2
Armour: 6+
Turrets: 2

Armament | Range/Speed | Firepower/Str | Fire Arc
Port Bombardment Cannon | 30cm | 3 | Left
Starboard Bombardment Cannon | 30cm | 3 | Right
Prow Launch Bays | Thunderhawk: 20cm | 2 | -
Prow Bombardment Cannon | 30cm | 3 | Left/Front/Right

Special Rules: for every variant cruiser, you must have 1 standard cruiser


Here is another variant Xabre and I thought up of for your perusal.

Space Marine Destroyer (aka "Heavy Dauntless") Cruiser: 165 points***
Type/Hits: Cruiser/6
Speed: 25 cm
Turns: 90
Shields: 2
Armour: 6+
Turrets: 2

Armament | Range/Speed | Firepower/Str | Fire Arc
Port ?weapon batteries | 30cm | 4 | Left
Starboard ?weapon batteries | 30cm | 4 | Right
Prow Launch Bays | Thunderhawk: 20cm | 2 squadron | -
Prow Lances | 30cm | 3 | Left/Front/Right

Note: Can replace the prow lances with Str 6 torps for no cost.

Special Rules: for every variant cruiser, you must have 1 standard cruiser
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Archer
 Post subject: Space Marine Strike Cruisers
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 2:01 am 
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I like the siege version...but the Destroyer should join the SO.

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Admiral d'Artagnan
 Post subject: Space Marine Strike Cruisers
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 2:49 am 
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Really? Why? Only Str 3 lances at 30 cm and you can't just stock up on them. It could be toned down to Str 2/30 cm I suppose.
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Magsu
 Post subject: Space Marine Strike Cruisers
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:37 am 
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I think Strike Cruisers, as they don't represent an actual class of ship, but a ship in a given role, should have modular options rather than variants.

For example (I haven't thought any of these through, so ignore the actual mechanics of these modifications)

You start with a standard 145 point Strike Cruiser. You may take two alterations from the following list:
(-5cm speed, +1 shield, +20 points)
(-Prow Bombardment Cannon, +1S to Prow LBs, -5 Points)
(-Prow Bombardment Cannon, +S4 Barrage Bombs, Points Neutral)
(-Broadside WBs, +S2 Broadside Bombardment Cannon, +10 points)
(+5cm speed, +d6 on AAF, -Prow LBs, -15 points)
However, you do not have to take one. The main idea here is that you'll get a variety of quite similar vessels that are based on the same principle.It could be argued that this goes towards the idiocy of the CWE/DE ships. Partially. However, the SCs still all have the same approximate design goal, which is not true of the divergent modifications of the Eldar.

Also, CWE should also be moved to a class system. Dark Eldar... well, the thing about them is they don't even have ship classes. An Archon just says "build me a ship like so", and it is done. They should have much greater options in their ships, even if they only have two "classes" (and all those are are the approximate size of the vessel).




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Hellebore
 Post subject: Space Marine Strike Cruisers
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 6:10 am 
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Quote (blackhorizon @ 02 Dec. 2005 (22:34))
Okay, copied from the Space Wolves list & the Black Templar list. Two Space Marine Strike Cruiser Assault variants.

Both differ in weapon layout. Is that what we want? In my opinion not. In the end this will be to confusing. If we can keep a variant always the same that's best and most likely to be accepted.
Special Rules will make chapters stand out, but in cases as this keeping things the same will be best IMHO.

Space Wolves

Space Marine Assault Cruiser: 160 points***
Type/Hits: Cruiser/6
Speed: 25 cm
Turns: 90
Shields: 2
Armour: 6+
Turrets: 2

Armament | Range/Speed | Firepower/Str | Fire Arc
Port Launch Bays | Thunderhawk: 20cm | 1 squadron | -
Starboard Launch Bays | Thunderhawk: 20cm | 1 squadron | -
Prow Launch Bays | Thunderhawk: 20cm | 2 squadron | -
Prow Bombardment Cannon | 30cm | 3 | Left/Front/Right

Special Rules: for every variant cruiser, you must have 1 standard cruiser

Black Templars

Space Marine Assault Cruiser: 165 points***
Type/Hits: Cruiser/6
Speed: 25 cm
Turns: 90
Shields: 1
Armour: 6+
Turrets: 2

Armament | Range/Speed | Firepower/Str | Fire Arc
Port weapon batteries | Thunderhawk: 20cm | 3 | L
Starboard weapon batteries | Thunderhawk: 20cm | 3 | R
Prow Launch Bays | Thunderhawk: 20cm | 3 squadron | -
Prow Bombardment Cannon | 30cm | 2 | Left/Front/Right

I think these two are a little um, skewif.

160 pts for 4 LB and 3 BC

or

165 pts for 9 LB and 2BC and -1 shield

I know which one I'd take.

Either the space wolf one is WAY under powered or the Black Templar one is WAY over powered.

9 LB on a light cruiser?!

hellebore

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blackhorizon
 Post subject: Space Marine Strike Cruisers
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 3:50 pm 
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Uhm, I believe my point is lost...

It was why make different versions with the same name? Assault Strike Cruiser must always be the same IMHO. Just like Devastator or Siege Strike Cruiser must always be the same. No matter what Chapter they fly.

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Xisor
 Post subject: Space Marine Strike Cruisers
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:13 pm 
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I think Magsu has the fine point here. Strike Cruisers are said to represent an 'intention' rather than a strict class of vessel.

IMO, a Modular basis is the best option at this point.

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Admiral d'Artagnan
 Post subject: Space Marine Strike Cruisers
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:08 pm 
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Both cases do have their points. If you choose modular basis though, there will be problems of hodgepodge units which will defeat the intent aim. Some units faster than others, some less shielded, some less armed. Better I think to limit the SCs into distinct units and roles so as to define them better.
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Magsu
 Post subject: Space Marine Strike Cruisers
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:30 pm 
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As an idea for a modular-based system, there are two types of modules. The first primarily deal with armament, and the names are adjectives. The second deal more with core systems and the names are nouns. This way, you can combine the two names (or just one if you only take one module) to get the Pattern designation of your Strike Cruiser.

As an example...

Ascendant: Strike Cruiser replaces its broadsides with S2 Bombardment Cannon
Righteous: Strike Cruiser replaces its Prow Bombardment Cannon with an S2 Lance, F arc only
Glorious: Strike Cruiser replaces its Prow Launch Bays with S4 Torpedo Launchers. These have Barrage Bombs standard.
Revered: Strike Cruiser gains 1 Shield and 1 Turret. These replace its Prow Bombardment Cannon

Imperium: Strike Cruiser gains +1 Hit, and loses 5cm speed.
Confessor: Strike Cruiser is an Exterminator
Angel: Strike Cruiser does not have firepower halved by AAF, CTNH, or BR. It now turns only 45*
Protector: -5cm speed.
(These all have point costs attached to them, I'm just too lazy to calculate them right now...)

So I could have a Revered Confessor pattern for Exterminatus, a pair of Righteous pattern for cracking ships with shields down, and the rest just leave as normal, maybe a few Ascendant pattern if I can afford it.

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Xisor
 Post subject: Space Marine Strike Cruisers
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:29 am 
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By modular, I was thinking as in:

Broadside Armament(pick one):
S2(or 1?) Launch Bays
FP 4 WBs(30cm) L+R
S2 BCs L+R

Prow Armament
S1 Launch Bay plus(pick one):
S4 Torpedo Launchers(can fire Barrage Bombs and Boarding Torps)
FP3 BCs(FLR)
FP5 WBs(FLR)

All with attendant points costs, of course.

Speeds, Hits, Armour, Turrets etc are all standard IMO, seems logical for the hull, and it keeps Special Rules and 'hodgepodge' to a minimum.

Note though that even the 'all weapons battery' ship is still only FP9 to one side. Powerful, but not amazing. Thats what Marines should be.

Lances on Strike Cruisers? I think any Loyal(Non-radical) Imperial Servant looking at or knowing of the Codex Astartes would have a distinct problem with this. Call it a hunch.

Now, also remember tha the above combinations will only 'really' be useful in certain configurations combined with other configurations, so whilst it's acceptable to 'class' them individually into each kind of strike cruiser, as it says currently: 'Strike Cruiser' is an arc for a myriad, if endless, possibility of vessels all under one general purpose. With the above proposal, all variants are 'fit for purpose', generally.

Deploying Space Marines against the enemy. The difference/significance of WBs/BCs isn't much, BCs are obviously useful for bombarding planets and defences, and WBs are useful generally. Lances though are really dedicated Anti-ship weaponry, if you're going 'dedicated Anti-shipping', you signed up for service!

The SM fleet doesn't need to be 'piss poor' in fleet engagements, it needs to shy away from overt counters to IN domains. That is: Nova Cannons, Proliferation of heavy Torpedo Salvos, Lances are a no-no. In fact, I propose that SM ships can only launch(in game) Barrage Bombs and Boarding Torps(I don't actually know, now I think about it, if they could launch the other kind anyway).

Again, it's just the 'feel' of the fleet is needed to make it usefully 'Marine', not the addition of more special rules.

I think theabove suggestion, with tweaking, is a good way to go.

Xisor

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blackhorizon
 Post subject: Space Marine Strike Cruisers
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 7:48 am 
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If you went a Modular way, Xisor's idea would be best. But from what I gathered the HA will no go to a total modular concept for Space Marines. Why I don't know.

But keeping Strike Cruisers in the line of:
* Tactical (= standard)
* Assault
* Devastator

Would also make sense. Just three variants is easy and fast to recognize.

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Admiral d'Artagnan
 Post subject: Space Marine Strike Cruisers
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:29 pm 
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Too much variation would agitate the IN. As it is, their weapons on the cruiser range are almost at the same efficiency. Limiting it to those 3 categories are enough really.
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blackhorizon
 Post subject: Space Marine Strike Cruisers
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:33 pm 
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Okay, agreed.

Now only to specify how the Assault & Devastator variant would look like.

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