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| BFG Points system http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=123&t=6134 |
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| Author: | Raysokuk [ Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | BFG Points system |
I'm having a nightmare trying to figure out a BFG points system. So I'm throwing what I've done so far on the forum and see if anyone has any ideas that could tidy it up. Cheers, RayB |
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| Author: | CyberShadow [ Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | BFG Points system |
Ouch. I see your problem. Whenever I have attempted anything like this, I find it best to find the two closest sets of stats, and just work out the cost for the difference between them. Then, find the simplest stat and deduct the cost that has just been calculated. Once you have made a start, it does come together... right to the end when two identicle ships work out at difference amounts! 
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| Author: | Lion in the Stars [ Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | BFG Points system |
Part of the problem with making a points system for GW games is that the points are army/fleet-specific. They seem to think that a unit that is atypical for a force (fills a gap in capability) should be more expensive than an identically-statted unit in another list. This is very interesting, since Star Fleet Battles' points system is constant across the board, and SFB is one of the best-balanced games out there. Never mind that it's a nightmare to play (takes longer to play a simple cruiser duel than it did to play a 3500-point game in 2nd ed 40k!), the balance is good. |
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| Author: | CyberShadow [ Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | BFG Points system |
For me, the big problem is that the original designers simply didnt give a hoot about points. They playtested, and made an educated guess... which, to be honest, may be the best way forwards. |
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| Author: | Shinnentai [ Sat Jan 21, 2006 1:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | BFG Points system |
In some ways no matter how accurate and detailed the points calculation scheme gets, it will never replace playtesting. Even after all of the variables are taken into account, there are some combinations of stats that will work better together than others ( eg 6+ prow & a lot of prow weaponry, or weapons systems with matched ranges, or a high proportion of ordinance ). In addition, to be honest I really don't believe it's even possible to model a lot of the variables in any accuracy anyway. Eg, in valueing the defences of a ship, they're going to be dependant on the ratio of weapons systems used against them. Also, what are the relative values of a shield and a hit point? Sure shields recharge, but ordinance ignores them and you can brace with hits - but then the craft is handicapped in the next turn. Not to mention factoring in how often even a good player will know when to brace ( you never know when those 4 dice will come up all 6's... ). I've always found that points comparisons with similar ships offer a good starting point that can then be modified subject to playtesting. |
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| Author: | Raysokuk [ Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | BFG Points system |
Well it's easy enough to make a points system based on educated guesses of an eductated guess. But what I wanted was something that actually showed where the guess came from. All I can really do is compare armour values and weapons systems with each other (and take a few liberties, like how to justify the cost of 'range'). On top of that include the points for things like locking-on and speed (although speed doesn't only affect the owning players weapons but your enemies aswell, how do you point that!?) It will be impossible to come up with a perfect points system, I'll try and stream line it by including 'rough' values for leadership in weapons etc. (Any points sytem will have to allow for the fudge factor I'm just try to make it as little as possible). Cheers, RayB |
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| Author: | Shinnentai [ Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:46 pm ] | ||
| Post subject: | BFG Points system | ||
Yes, range is another difficult one eh? I suppose the main advantage of range is that you get to fire the first volley so that your opponent's first volley is diminished through losing ships etc. Then there's also the greater ability to strike at targets of opportunity ( escorts hiding behind the enemy fleet / flanking vessels / crippled vessels trying to escape ). Plus I suppose you may get more chances to fire ( even if it is only an extra volley ). Range is also more important against enemies that hit and run ( Eldar ) rather than those that will close with you anyway. |
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| Author: | blackhorizon [ Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | BFG Points system |
Another thing that could be done is to start from scratch. Don't look at the ships, just build a new point system without looking at old stats. Use the new stats & points in BFG, make an official errata on Armada, just like an official FAQ. |
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| Author: | Shinnentai [ Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | BFG Points system |
That would be to assume that the points system will be any more accurate than the current costings of ships. This is very much in doubt. A far better course of action would be to simply tweak the present costs based on player feedback I think. |
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| Author: | Raysokuk [ Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | BFG Points system |
This is true (on feedback), as you could design a ship with all its weapons firing in one arc (say Prow) and it could totally out do a ship with the same building blocks but having the weapons spread into different fire arcs. (or imagine if a ship only had one broadside but was twice the strength!) I think the only useable way of pointing a ship is to take its closest comparison and increase or decrease the points as appropriate (sadly not all ships are pointed that well, like the Dev!). Cheers, RayB |
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| Author: | Xisor [ Sun Jan 22, 2006 6:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | BFG Points system |
Now, as nice as the point systems are, my main fear of succumbing entirely to them is that anyone with a sufficient grasp of low-end calculus(I think it's that anyway) and/or a bit of computational wizardry with a program or programmable calculator will always find a way of getting the optimum fleet/army/character for the points. With the old playtesting methods, it's easy to 'nip this in the bud' by simply adjusting as you see fit. For example, how do you take into account the effect that a change has on playing style, or overlapability with other ships? Okay, now I'm justbeing cynical. I'm convinced if Sigoroth could be bothered/coerced, we'd have a damn niceformula. But that's not likely IMO. In the end though, it seems, I agree with almost all points here already, so it doesn't make much odds!  Xisor |
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| Author: | blackhorizon [ Sun Jan 22, 2006 8:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | BFG Points system |
If you ask Sigoroth again and again and again he eventually may add his wisdom on the point formula for BFG. I know because I was persistent on having a look at the Eldar MMS rules, finally he showed them and now they are bound to appear in public (WR...when...? Dunno...) |
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| Author: | CyberShadow [ Mon Jan 23, 2006 12:45 am ] | ||
| Post subject: | BFG Points system | ||
Issue ten... soon! 
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