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Worst fight ever...

 Post subject: Worst fight ever...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 12:05 am 
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Played what I can only describe has the worst game of BFG the other day. :(

I turned up at my local store for a game.

I was playing this young lad & he turned up with what I can only say was the worst fleet I've ever fought against.

I brought along my fleet of a Retribution, Overlord, Luner, Dominater, Gothic, sqd of Swords & Firestorms.

This to me is not a fleet which I expect to win every game with, this is a fleet with abit of character... that's looks good on the field of battle.

Now, I'm not saying my way of playing is correct, but I like a good game of blowing each other to bits. ?A bit like the battle of Jutland.

This lad turned up with a fleet of the carrier battleship, two slaughters & 2 carrier cruisers & two sqds of escorts, one of which could lunch torps.

Needless to say after the first turn he had about 12 assault boat counters on the table.

After about 3 or 4 turns I'd lost both escort sqds & BB had taken acouple of hit.

Around the 5th or 6th turn he'd launched another wave of these little gits... ?needless to say the game felt more like Pearl Harbour than a naval engagement.

Now don't get me wrong, every one should be able to play whatever way they like, but I really don't see the point in Uber fleets.  (he was complaining that he didn't have the Planet Killer yet!!)

I can't see the point in having a fleet that's gonna win nearly every game you play. ?To me that's just not the point.

This annoyed me as I didn't feel like we'd played a game of BFG. ?To make matters worst the little git started to lecture me on not taking any Nova Cannons & not being able to have boarding torps myself........ ? :angry: ?:angry:

I felt afterwards like, if that's BFG you can keep. :{

Just wait til I play him next, I'm gonna bring my Emp, Mars, acouple of Nova Cannon Cruisers & acouple of Dominaters.... :laugh: ? little... mumble mumble mumble

Sorry for the long rant, but I was just sooo..........!!!!!!





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 Post subject: Worst fight ever...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 12:45 am 
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Lol! I guess gaming is a 'social contract' which people enter into with differing expectations. I know that among the GW gaming community there is a widespread expectation that opponents will field a 'sporting' list. I think this is largely a holdover from early days when it was possible to take game destroying lists involving virus grenades (in 40k) and the like. I guess this may still be possible these days, but I suspect to a much lesser degree. I haven't played BFG (though I'd really like to if I had the money, there is a big ork fleet I have my eye on at the moment...) so I'm not sure at what stage of list balance and game balance it is at. It is younger than 40k so I suspect there is still a lot of balancing to do... I hear ork fleets have a hard time of it?

Personally I like good hard games, and I like opponents to take killer lists within the rules - for me coming from competitive ancient wargaming (DBM) that is the standard. I haven't had any problem in 40k 4th or epic Armageddon with this approach so far. I often make less than effective lists because I want to use a weird combination of stuff but I don't expect opponents to - luckily most of them feel the same way.  I know that some kids (who I haven't yet played - though I am taking one on in a fortnight) take the killiest things they can but IMO all power to them so long as they are good sports during the game itself.  

Anyway I hope you beat the snot out of him in your next game... by all means take exactly what you think you would need to smash him utterly! :D

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 Post subject: Worst fight ever...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 3:19 am 
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Hi!

If there is one thing I have learned over the many years as a gamer is that screening for a worthy opponent is more important than the effort you put into collecting you armies.

I have long since passed beyond the need for "pick up" games with strangers. My free time is precious and I want to spend it with someone who I enjoy being with. The game is actually secondary, an excuse to share with someone who enjoys your interests. Winning and losing doesnt even enter the equation for me anymore. The simple act of playing with a dear friend is victory enough.

One of the reasons I quickly dumped 40k and its other "core" games was precisely the behavior you mentioned. Mind you I still would play those games but ONLY with a good friend that shares my "philosophy" towards gaming.

I think most gamers evolve through a series of "steps". I find those levels where winning the game is least important the most gratifing. :)

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 Post subject: Worst fight ever...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 4:33 am 
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Quote (primarch @ 19 2005 Feb.,02:19)
Hi!

If there is one thing I have learned over the many years as a gamer is that screening for a worthy opponent is more important than the effort you put into collecting you armies.

I have long since passed beyond the need for "pick up" games with strangers. My free time is precious and I want to spend it with someone who I enjoy being with. The game is actually secondary, an excuse to share with someone who enjoys your interests. Winning and losing doesnt even enter the equation for me anymore. The simple act of playing with a dear friend is victory enough.

One of the reasons I quickly dumped 40k and its other "core" games was precisely the behavior you mentioned. Mind you I still would play those games but ONLY with a good friend that shares my "philosophy" towards gaming.

I think most gamers evolve through a series of "steps". I find those levels where winning the game is least important the most gratifing. :)

Primarch

Yup totally, though I guess that with games like BFG, especially if you haven't played for long, you have to start somewhere in your player search!  

As for winning being least important, I agree with that too. I don't mind who wins, but I do prefer a close game that goes down to the wire, over a game that is a cakewalk for one side or the other. Its usually not fun turkey shooting or being on the recieving end of it. In my experience the best way to consistantly produce a close game is to have competant players with reasonably competitive lists.

There are of course exceptions to this 'competitive close game' goodness. For example a player using a bloodbowl halfling or goblin team has a different standard of 'winning' or 'close result' than other teams ('they scored against me - how humiliating!').

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 Post subject: Worst fight ever...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 11:39 am 
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My thoughts exactly, Primarch, especially if there's a few good lauchs along the way. My most memorable games were both Warhammer FB - in one my long-suffering chaos army AND the opposing Dark Eldar troops all fled away after a huge melee in the middle of the table - two entire armies running away from each other in opposite directions - that was grand! In another, I was plasteredby the Skaven, and when I was done to my last couple of surviving Plaguebearers, they somehow managed to kill the Skaven general! I lost terribly, but my opponents good-natured complaints about the death of his favourite rat were terrific.
Campsie, I'd guess what's worst are his inane comments on wishing he'd had the Planet Killer, the preaching etc. I mean that's not fun gaming, that's just the 'ooh my goodness my future happiness depends on blasting everyone whatever it takes' attitude, which is plain BORING and offputting. I try to win my games, but losing around 85% of them doesn't mean I have to get an army of greater daemons either. Anyway, I'd still manage to lose. I guess I'd manage to lose with an army designed by all the best wargamers put together, playing against half my own points worth of the worst units generaled (or admiraled) by a 6-year old who learnt to play by reading WD battle reports. People who lose against me go and hide in shame for months on end.
Anyways, don't worry about BFG Campsie, it's a fun game, in spite of horrors like that character. You get them in every game, I'm afraid, so the best thing is - avoid them.

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 Post subject: Worst fight ever...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 2:42 pm 
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Hi!

I agree Markconz, close games are MOST entertaining!

I actually feel quite embarrased when a win via "blow out". It feels like I cheated (even though I didnt) or wasnt gentlemanly in my approach to gaming.

I feel most happy when a clever opponent gives me a good trashing. That means I have something to learn and look forward to in the next game. :)

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 Post subject: Worst fight ever...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 5:19 pm 
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I play predominately Eldar in BFG (though I have many fleets) and one of my gaming group always takes a complete WB fleet no matter what he's playing when going up against me...It's interesting because in the other game systems we play he makes lists as much for flavor as for victory...I guess some players personality changes depending on the game as much as their opponent...
There is something to be said with the lack of personality of BFG...Although the races have personality of their own it's much harder for many players to wrap their mind's around the "personality" of indiviual ships then it is the various units in WFB or 40K...The best you can do is the general personality of the command crew and this lacks some of the flavor...
That being said it's easier to distance yourself from the fun aspect of the game and get more locked in to the tactics (and hense 'winning')...

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 Post subject: Worst fight ever...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:41 pm 
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Hmm.... this talk about opponents and fun is all well and good, but doesn't the initial post just underscore an horrible lack of playtesting and balance which BFG is suffering from?

An unbalanced GW game... now this is a big surprise... NOT :p


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 Post subject: Worst fight ever...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 9:07 pm 
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I dont think so, to be honest. Gothic is actually one of the best balanced games in the GW armoury. Sure, a fleet which is set up as all carrier will be difficult for some fleets to contend with, but at the same time it does present some serious flaws in its design. The opposition fleet could put out a total of 12 (I believe) aircraft squadrons. While this can be dangerous, they are vulnerable to other aircraft and lance weapons. I think that the problem was that Campsie was not expecting it, and was simply looking for a game which would be good fun. If he had gone in knowing that it would be that bitter, he could have taken a lot more lances (still using Imperials). The Chaos fleet mentioned is a scarey prospect, to be sure, but it is specifically designed to go against a general Imperial fleet, since it is able to get around the front armour with the attack craft.

There are some fleets which have more trouble than other in Gothic (cough... Orks!), but in general the problems are a lot less than some other, more 'core' games!  :;):

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 Post subject: Worst fight ever...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 10:39 pm 
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Hmm... I don't know BFG so I'll take your word for it. Your description does ring an alarm bell, though: it seems like BFG is a classic case of a "rock-paper-scissors" game, i.e. one where army composition is everything and the actual game looks like an afterthought.

WFB 4th is one of the classic examples, with invulnerable mega-monsters (Bloodthirster --> eats whole armies) and the inevitable silver bullets (like anyone with the black gem of Gnar, or the infamous "bitch queen hunter killer missile": Witch Queen on flying mount with potion of strength and the freeze autokill sword, can't remember the name).

I don't like this kind of games; generally proper tactics (like maneuver) play a very marginal part; they are sorta like a CCG, in which pre-game preparation is actually more important than the game itself.


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 Post subject: Worst fight ever...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 11:12 pm 
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Hi,

I don't think BFG is that much of a "rock-paper-scissors" game. I think, as Cybershadow said, that Campsie and his opponent simply had different agendas when looking for a game. Campsie was looking for a fun game and his opponent was simply looking to boost his ego. In the two-dozen or so games I've played of BFG, I've found the scenario and campaign play is far better and a lot more fun than the head-to-head play that something like WFB offers. Almost all of the games I've ever played are more fun when you have time to build a characterful army than just come-as-you-are forces, and I think most people here would agree.

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 Post subject: Worst fight ever...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 12:52 am 
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Oh no, in my opinion BFG is far from that- it is very well balanced, and tactics are a large part of the game, very much more so than 40k or WHFB where army selection is so key.

There are no real 'uber-ships' in the official fleets- some of the stuff currently being tested is a little shakey, but this gets worked out as the game gets older, rules are revised slightly, and players learn how to deal with different styles of play.

Most really powerful units (Planet Killer, Ramllies etc) are simply not designed for use in every fleet engagement, and are much more characterful used in a one-off game...





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 Post subject: Worst fight ever...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 4:00 pm 
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That sucks Campsie. I hate opponents like that. }:)
It seems a shame because when I played BFG when it first came out it was a real fun game. As other have pointed out if you ever play this guy again you will know what you are up against and will be able to counter his fleet appropriately.

Hopefully you will be able to find some more opponents with a similar mindset to yours. As Primrach said a decent gaming group/buddy is one of the most important things you can have as you get older and stop playing in-store as often.

I am lucky- I have been a member of my local gaming club for over 12 years, and the club itself has been going strong for over 16 years. But then I made an effort to keep in touch with the guys so even when I moved 200 miles away for period of 4 years, I still kept in contact. That meant when I moved back to London I was able to pick up where I left off.

Where abouts do you live? Are there any list members close enough to give you even an occasional game of BFG?

Cheers

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 Post subject: Worst fight ever...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:49 pm 
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I live in Leeds.

I've got a Necromunda campaign coming up at my local GW store, so I'll kick his but then :O

I do think fighters etc have their place but the game shouldn't revolve around it.

If i wasn't desperate for a game I wouldn't bother having friendly games with little no bodies. :angry:

I moved away from my gaming group some years back & i've no way of getting back in touch with them (one of them ended up getted married to my ex) :l

So you know, easy come, easy go....





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 Post subject: Worst fight ever...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:26 pm 
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Quote (Campsie @ 23 2005 Feb.,22:49)
I've got a Necromunda campaign coming up at my local GW store, so I'll kick his but then :O

Central or Whiterose? I am up in that area fairly often myself... although less right now (typically!).

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