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Escorts

 Post subject: Escorts
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 7:03 pm 
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Hello all,

In the topic about a 1000 point fleet I posted formy planned imperial fleet I found several comments on getting more escorts. I have only played a couple games and mainly with chaos (one with Marines). Chaos fleets for what I have seen rely less in escorts than imperials (as far as I have seen) and more on line cruisers. I am a fan of the Slaughter there :) In any case the question would be about the performance of escorts in yur fleets over cruisers and if they play well enough to take a significant chunk of your points total in escorts. I see them being extremely maneuverable and with some nice abilities for a fair cost, but taking a high number of them turns them into expensive squadrons, with almost the same cost than a line cruiser. Given their extreme vulnerability to almost any kind of thing the enemy can throw at them (torps, WB, assault boats...) I see them as quite vulnerable and easy to get VPs for the enemy even if they might be useful as well in a support role.

What are your thoughts on escorts? Both in general and as a specific issue for imperial fleets

Health and a lot of sixes,

Xavi

PS: for those of you advising to take other combos on the fleet, remember the low cost of the fleet I did talk about :)

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 Post subject: Escorts
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 1:17 am 
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IMO escorts can have interesting and decisive roles in a game when played correctly.
On the other hand they are expensive, cant take any ("mesurable") damage, and have this horrible tendency to blow up like in a chain reaction...you just can have anything blowing next to them (3D6 can be a veeeeery long distance) other then another escort or they WILL go up in flames by "simpathy"...

Cheers
Axt


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 Post subject: Escorts
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 10:30 am 
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Personally I think escorts are essential.  As an Eldar player primarily, its even more of a priority for me to take lots.  The Eldar escorts are vey powerful (but fragile).  A fleet shouldn't over look their importance.  I also think Chaos has some really good escorts too, and shouldn't discount them.  As an Eldar player, the Chaos escorts give me head aches.  The escort in particular is the one with a 45cm range and side firing arcs.  Its hard to attack these and retreat to safety, and they are good at tarcking down Eldar ships, as there isn't many safe places from it.

Escorsts can have a big variety of roles,  from mopping up, to distraction and hunting.

As a rule I would go for something like;

Imperial and Chaos - 3-6 escorts per capital ship
Eldar and maybe even orks - 5-10 escorts per capital ship.

If you have a fleet of, for example, 4 cruisers and 8 escorts, I think you will struggle.  Their manouverability is very important in a fleet.  I would rather have a cruiser with the support of 4+ escorts, than a squadron of two cruisers.

But this could just be me.  :blush:


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 Post subject: Escorts
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:54 pm 
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Yeah, I always use escorts in my Imperial fleet- they add character to my fleet and also are very useful for certain tasks- Cobras in paticular for torpedoing ships at oppotune moments, and Swords are also quite good in larger sized squadrons- their combined firepower can really do some damage...

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 Post subject: Escorts
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 1:09 pm 
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What about Firestorms? They seem to be the smal brother here. It is because of the existance of the dautless? I can think so easily. For 110 points you have the same frontal lance firepower in the front and an overall tougher target, at least as far as I can see, haven't used any yet.

Cheers,

Xavi

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 Post subject: Escorts
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 1:13 pm 
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Not being an Imperial player its hard for me to vouch for Dauntless cruisers.  Being an ork and Eldar player, though, I love them.  They go pop very easily, and often take out things nearby.

Unless supported by escorts, other light cruisers or even cruisers, I think they are vulnerable.  Escorts are that little bit more manouverable, and dart through asteroids etc easier too.


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 Post subject: Escorts
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 1:15 pm 
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-Firestorms are okay- I prefer Swords or Cobras over them though, as they are relativly expensive- have only one turret compared to the Swords two, etc...
However, they do make a very efective combination with a lance Dauntless- this is how I usually use my single squadron...

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 Post subject: Escorts
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 1:22 pm 
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Remember, if you do fight Eldar, its batteries all the way.  Lances are pretty pointless.

So go for swords and a lance dauntless as Stormseer said.  It gives you good flexibility.


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 Post subject: Escorts
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 3:41 pm 
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Quote (Shadow Hunter @ 14 2003 Oct.,13:22)
Remember, if you do fight Eldar, its batteries all the way. ?Lances are pretty pointless.

So go for swords and a lance dauntless as Stormseer said. ?It gives you good flexibility.

yup, but against necrons the other way is true as well: WB are way worse than lances there :) So the final outcome should be a balance between the 2, not only WB or only lances. This is why I like the lunar so much I guess, heh.

My idea was to have an al around fleet, not specialized against anything so this is why I was getting different stuff al around :) For the sakes of diversity of weaponry I think I will take falcions in the end, though. They are good all rounders. WB 3 each even if I have other special orders to do and hence pass over the option to reload the torps, that are a fgood anti ordi option there, though, without having to overly waste a lot of firepower, that is what happens if you take the torps of the cobras or line cruisers to crush a few fighters :)

In ay case one clear concusion I can rise from the comments is that my imps are heavily lacking in escorts. I have 4 cruisers and 2 escorts squadrons (5 escorts total). Basicaly you are saying "nope" to that combo. LOL. Well, back to the drawing board I guess. The problem is that I have no idea of what should I take out in order to get more escorts in.

I was planning to get:

- An average carrier (dictator) in order to get that needed fighter coer for my fleet. Maybe it is me, but this seems a minimum to get a decent air cover. If someone convinces me that aircraft are not needed I might drop it, though. In the BFG aho list I posted he comment to see if the aircraft cover was needed and the conclusion I drew from the responses was that yup, you are way bette with that minimal air cover.

- 2 lunars teamed up. Broadside of WB 12 and 4 lances is good to take down....almost anything. It is not overly astonishing so I also added...

- 1 dictator to go for the kill. Gorgeous model and IMO a good ship to mopp up hurted stuff. Faced it in 3 games and basicaly this is what he did with my hurted cruisers: tear them appart while loked on.

If you think one of those cruisers ca go down the ladder without much problems I am ok about removing it. An other option is to get one of the lunars armd with a Nova cannon. That way he would be able to a) be a treat to enemy ordenance and b) have a powerful weapon on the front at long range, even if a quite random one. The downside is that I would be unable to deploy that massed 12 torpedo firepower in the front that is also appealing.... In that case I suppose I would team up the torpedo lunar with the gothic for the 12 torp wave and use the other lunar on his own. 2 x WB6 is almost as powerful as a WB 12 salvo.

Now, I am taking in mind combos that do not include escorts :( so in fact I am not following the advise here. Would an Enforcer (frontal of lances 30/3, 2 launch bays total, 110 points) be enough for the air cover? If I took that and the NC instead of the Dictator I would be saving 90 points for an other 3 strong cobra squadron or enough to boost the existing squadrons up.

In the games I have played I have used both the torp and the lance armed escorts in my chaos fleet,one squadron of 3-4 of each type. The result is that they did die not rapidly, but astonishingly fast. They were primary targets for my enemy and he ensured that the weak protection of the dudes worked in his favour. I suppoiose this is why I don'thave much confidence in my escorts. I suppose I still have to lear how to use them.

Anyway, I am copying this message into the 1000 point fleet list topic I posted for comments on the exact list. Let's keep things separated :)

More thoughts on the escort things?

Cheers,

Xavi

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 Post subject: Escorts
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 4:05 pm 
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Using escorts is tricky. They do die horribly fast if you throw them into the deep end.

So, you have to use them differently to your cruisers, as they cant take many hits.

Hold them back with your cruisers, and force the opponent to come to you.  Dont break off and split your force up.  It makes it too easy for your opponent.

With your cruisers, let out that longrange fire power they have.  Make them have to either fly through it, or go around to get to you.

If they go through, you should be able to cause some damage ready for your main assault.  Use your escorts to knock down the shields, and then hit them with your cruisers.  This is how you should use your Escorts.  They aren't powerful enough to go it on thier own.

His Escorts should be a target for your ordnance (inc. bombers)  If you can keep them busy with these, yours are free to give your cruisers the advantage.

If his escorts have broken off from his fleet to chase down your escorts, keep them with your cruisers.  This way he'll have to close on those to get to your escorts.  And cruisers have a longer range than escorts.  He wont be able to get close to you without you shooting him first.

In a 1000point list, 3 cruisers is enough.  Especially if having 4 only leaves you with 5 escorts.

Dropping a cruiser (I'm guessing) will let you have another 4-5 escorts.  This gives you just over 3 escorts per cruiser, the ideal amount.


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 Post subject: Escorts
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 1:23 am 
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Quote (Shadow Hunter @ 14 2003 Oct.,16:05)
Using escorts is tricky. They do die horribly fast if you throw them into the deep end.

So, you have to use them differently to your cruisers, as they cant take many hits.

His Escorts should be a target for your ordnance (inc. bombers) ?If you can keep them busy with these, yours are free to give your cruisers the advantage.

If his escorts have broken off from his fleet to chase down your escorts, keep them with your cruisers. ?This way he'll have to close on those to get to your escorts. ?And cruisers have a longer range than escorts. ?He wont be able to get close to you without you shooting him first.

Ok, I think I have been using my escorts badly so far :) Thx for the tips. Will try them in the next game.

One thing that happens with imperial escorts is that line cruisers usually do NOT have a longer range than escorts in firepower, having lances and WB at 30 cm. In the case of chaos and eldar the longer range of cruisers over escorts is tue, but not for imps, you know :) In any case keeping them back is definitively an option :)

One problem at 1000 points would be that I don't have that much aircraft to keep his escorts busy. 4 planes at most unless I field an emperor, that I feel is overkill (or a second dictator, that is a waste of points). Using loads of torps on escorts might work, but they are also a main asset for the rest of y fleet but I can see that taking downescorts matters. In fact it has mattered in the games I have played! :)

Thx for the tips again :)

Cheers,

Xavi

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