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Main Book Chaos Ships Analysis

 Post subject: Main Book Chaos Ships Analysis
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 7:59 pm 
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Hya all!

Well, i was bored this afternoon, so I decided to make a small analysis of my arch enemy's fleet: the Chaos Fleet. In fact I did so because I plan on mixing both fleets in BFG (coming soon in my chapter's fluff) so there we go.

keep in mind that I am not that experienced in BFG, having played only 4 games so far, so it might contain loads of gameplay inaccuracies since it is basically a number crunching analysis :) Enjoy.

___


BATTLE FLEET GOTHIC Main Book Chaos Ships

BATTLESHIPS

- Despoiler: 400 points for a carrier with a fair firepower, even if most line ships beat it there. I don't really like it.


- Desolator: 300 points for 10 side battery firepower (including the dorsal battery) and strength 9 torpedoes. Good for opening a path in the enemy fleet launching a salvo so the rest of the chaos ships can infiltrate the enemy battle line following the torpedoes when the enemy fleet diverts its course to prevent being hit.

OVERALL: I think that chaos battleships are overpriced and I would go for the grand cruisers any day, but I have seen them used with great efficiency as well. Mostly as damage sponges, where their 4 shields, 12 hit points and high number of turrets turn them into difficult bastions to break, so they are placed in a vulnerable spot to be beaten while the rest of the chaos fleet causes the real damage on the enemy. Usually that “trick” (if it can be called so) is used with a Desolator since it also has Str. 9 torpedoes and there are 1 or 2 Devastations already providing the aircraft cover.



HEAVY CRUISERS

- Repulsive: It is like a Retribution battleship with increased firepower but lower resistance (-2 shields less, -2 hit points, -1 turret). For its cost it is good as a line ship with punch. One of the few chaos ships with prow torpedoes.


- Styx: Extremely expensive ship. Only suited if you want to go to battle with massed aircraft squadrons. In any case I think a pair of Devastations will fit better in the fleet, providing all around a much better combo.


- Hades: Good ship. Upgraded Murder to add 2 dorsal lances to the mix and have the frontal lances being able to shot in every direction. For only 30 points more than a Murder it is way better IMO. Lance and WB good firepower. Much better than a Gothic or Lunar for 20 points more. A bargain.


- Acheron: 4 lances in every direction (2+ 2 dorsal lances) and a mild firepower of 6. It is like a lunar with 4 lances instead of the usual 2. Not bad, but could be better. The 3 defence turrets come in handy, though. It is simply a line cruiser, not a heavy one


OVERALL: except the Styx they are good ships, even if not astonishing (except the Hades, that is a bargain for its point cost)



CRUISERS

- Devastation: very good ship. It is like an Imperial Dictator, but has lances in the sides and a prow battery that can shot in the sides, so in fact it is like a Lunar with launch bays if it attacks on the side. Well worth it to provide the needed aircraft screen in low point battles where the Styx and Despoiler are not around to help their smaller brothers. It is better than its imperial equivalent, the Dictator, that is more expensive and has less side firepower.


- Murder: Good ship as well. Good side weaponry (10) and 2 lances in the prow. I think there are better options here.


- Carnage: WB=16 a 45 cm or less. Massed medium range firepower vessel and it is good at it. Not bad at all for a line cruiser. Packs more firepower than a retribution Imperial battleship, and that being a simple line cruiser. The lack of lances might be annoying sometimes but not by much. Specially if you can take other stuff like Idolators and Hades to compensate for that. It is a mobile battery.


- Slaughter: It is like an upgraded Lunar. (2 lances, WB=8) and can upgrade its firepower with the front battery for a total of up to 14 . Worse frontal punch than a lunar but much better side punch. Well worth it. ALWAYS TAKE IT. It is as fast as an escort as well, a thing most cruisers would be envious of 8and they are) ;)

OVERALL: those ships are simply great, except the murder, that could be better for its cost, but hey. Well worth buys and the workhorses of the chaos fleet


ESCORTS

- Idolator: Same as a firestorm.

- Infidel: torpedoes=2, WB=2. Armour 5+. Better than a cobra (moves 30 as well) but costs 40 points.

- Iconoclast: WB=3. ?4+ armour. Way worse than a Sword class frigate, but at 30 points is not bad, even if it could be better, specially when you have infidels at 40 points. They get swapped armour and costs there when you compare themwith their Sword and Cobra equivalents.




OVERALL FLEET OVERVIEW: Massed weapon battery fire fleet. The fleet is more suited for a side fire kind of battle than for a frontal attack. Better to surround the enemy. It has way more firepower in line ships than regular imperial ships even if their prow weaponry is quite lame when not combined with the side weapons. Being a Left/front/right combo, the weapons in the prow (mostly weapon batteries) are great to combine with the side weapons. In a frontal engagement the massed torpedo salvos and nova cannons can tear them apart, but once the side/rear attacks come into play the imperials might find themselves in dire problems.

Happened to me, so guess :)

Any comments and criticisms are appreciated here. I am sure there must be stuff that I have not noticed or that is outright wrong there, so there we go :)

Health and a lot of sixes,

Xavi

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 Post subject: Main Book Chaos Ships Analysis
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 8:58 pm 
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I have not had the cance to read this fully. My version on the Chaos fleet (along with the Imperial one), is here:

Gothic round up

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Main Book Chaos Ships Analysis
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 9:46 pm 
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Yup, I know :) Already read it when I was deciding on what to take on my imperial fleet. A good read for sure :) ON the chaos ships issue I agree with you in most points, even if in a pair of pojnts I disagree with you like Murders not being that good, for example and me thinking that the Hades is a great buy -much better than the Murder- there :)

As I said, a good read,

Keep your head up,

Xavi

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 Post subject: Main Book Chaos Ships Analysis
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 8:03 pm 
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Well, a smallish update to my own notepad kind of analysis :)

The Acheron is as good as the Hades. it is simply that they act differently. The Hades is more powerful in frontal (4 lances) against most ernemies hit in their prow (high armour values), so while the fleets close the gap between them the Hades is more powerful. But once they are close and the side weapons enter te equation the Acheron is better. It has a more powerful firepower there, with up to 4 lances and WB=6 there over the 2 lances and WS=10 of the Hades. Make tyour calculations, you'll find the same results there. or at least I hope so! ;):)

Health and a lot of sixes,

Xavi

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 Post subject: Main Book Chaos Ships Analysis
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 12:16 am 
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Well, just played a battle against chaos. I think I could be rated as a fair analyst and a bad commander right now since 2 slaughters and an Acheron served me my butt in a silver plate. With courtesy, but the beating huerted a lot. LOL. My poor gothics and lunars had too much for them to sustain. :)

health and a lot of sixes,

Xavi

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 Post subject: Main Book Chaos Ships Analysis
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:26 pm 
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Nice articles (both CyberShadow's and Xavi's)!

I have a doubt about the "more expensives ships" though:
Are they (or most of them) a real bad choice, or its just because of the size of the battles played?
I mean, I play W40k, and WFB and while some monsters (in points cost) are too expensive for me to think about using them in 2000 pts (for ex), when I play 3000+ I might use one.
On the other hand there are some bulky stuff that no matter the points I might be playing, unless its a specific scenario, I wont use them because there are zillions of more interesting things to use...


Cheers
Axt

PS: By the way, just out of curiosity, do you use the cardboard attack craft/bombers supplied in the box, or do you use the specific minis (or else)?
I ask this, because I've been trying to see the codes for the metalic ones on the GW "web store" but I cant seem to find them. (I'm prety sure they were there not many years ago...)


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 Post subject: Main Book Chaos Ships Analysis
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:56 pm 
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Well, I still think they are expensive as hell for what they do, but you have a point there: I have played games to up to 1500 points, so the bigger ships are really a huge investment. In bigger games maybe they are better. I will have to keep an eye on that and update the thingy if I find that you had the upper hand here :) Thx. An other thinjg is that this is the basic chaos force analysis, disregarding quite some important ships in the chaos fleet, IIRC 2 more battleships that might be more fairly priced from my point of view.

If anyone has experience about big games (2,000-5,000) and want to comment on the battleshuip thingy all the ideas will be appreciated :)

The ordy thing, I am quite a new player here and I am building the fleet, so no metal ordenance for me yet. When it comes to torpedoes I use home maded torpedoes made with teeth sticks. Easy, cheap and more spectacular than a plain counter :) The other stuff you were asking for can be found HERE in the GW online store. Check the Fury Interceptors, the starhawk bombers for the imperials and the doomfire and swiftdeath for chaos fleets. They appear in the bottom of the page's list of available BFG products, both to buy directly online and with their code reference if you click on the link that is their name :) Hope that helped.

Health and a lot of sixes,

Xavi

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 Post subject: Main Book Chaos Ships Analysis
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:47 pm 
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Well, I just read that in the yahoo BFG list. It basically answers Axtelinge's question (BTW: looks like you had the correct intuition here :) ) and makes great comments on the analysis from the POV of an experienced BFG chaos player (13 fleets, OMG!!) even if I disagree with a pair of his points. It is well worth reading and I thought it would be worth to share that with you if you don't read the list :)

Enjoy,

Xavi

----------------------------------------------


MAIN BOOK'S CHAOS FLEET ANALYSIS

From: ? "Bell"
Date: ?Wed Sep 17, 2003 ?10:04 pm
Subject: ?Re: [BFG-List] Blue Book's Chaos Fleet Analysis


Hi Xavi,

I own 13 Chaos fleets (each of the Legions).
So I'll give you some comments (as I have time for once)

___


MAIN BOOK'S CHAOS FLEET ANALYSIS


BATTLESHIPS

Despoiler: 400 points for a carrier with a fair firepower, even if
most line ships beat it there. I don't really like it.

<
Desolator: 300 points for 10 side battery firepower (including the dorsal battery) and strength 9 torpedoes. Good for opening a path in the enemy fleet launching a salvo so the rest of the chaos ships can infiltrate the enemy battle line following the torpedoes when the enemy fleet diverts its course to prevent being hit.

<
OVERALL: I think that chaos battleships are overpriced and I would go for the grand cruisers any day, but I have seen them used with great efficiency as well. Mostly as damage sponges, where their 4 shields, 12 hit points and high number of turrets turn them into difficult bastions to break, so they are placed in a vulnerable spot to be beaten while the rest of the chaos fleet causes the real damage on the enemy. Usually that "trick" (if it can be called so) is used with
a Desolator since it also has Str. 9 torpedoes and there are 1 or 2 Devastations already providing the aircraft cover.

<


HEAVY CRUISERS

Repulsive: It is like a Retribution battleship with increased
firepower but lower resistance (-2 shields less, -2 hit points, -1 turret). For its cost it is good as a line ship with punch. One of the few chaos ships with prow torpedoes, and it also has boarding torpedoes, so he is a good buy at 230 points, where it is cheap for its abilities.

<
Styx: Extremely expensive ship. Only suited if you want to go to battle with massed aircraft squadrons. In any case I think a pair of Devastations will fit better in the fleet, providing all around a much better combo. 290

<
Hades: Good ship. Upgraded Murder to add 2 dorsal lances to the mix and have the frontal lances being able to shot in every direction. For only 30 points more than a Murder it is way better IMO. Lance and WB good firepower. Much better than a Gothic or Lunar for 20 points more. A bargain. 200

<

Acheron: 4 lances in every direction (2+ 2 dorsal lances) and a mild firepower of 6. It is like a lunar with 4 lances instead of the usual 2. Not bad, but could be better. The 3 defence turrets come in handy, though. It is simply a line cruiser, not a heavy one. However, if you do the calculation he outguns a Hades ship in almost every possible circumstance, 4 lances + WS6 being more powerful than 2 lances + WS10. In a frontal firepower he is less powerful, but its side firepower surpassed that of the Hades. An other bargain, this time for side firepower. 190

<

Acheron vs. Hades
The Acheron is as good as the Hades. it is simply that they act differently. The Hades is more powerful in frontal (4 lances) against most enemies hit in their prow (high armour values), so while the fleets close the gap between them the Hades is more powerful. But once they are close and the side weapons enter the equation the Acheron is better. It has a more powerful firepower there, with up to 4 lances and WB=6 there over the 2 lances and WS=10 of the Hades. The Acheron also has an extra turret, thing that comes in handy when you have a carrier or torpedo maniac in the other side of the table. They can be rated as equal, though. Which one you prefer comes down to personal preference.

<:o) The acheron is rather pointless (in the bluie book rules) when taking a Dev is
a much better choice for the pts.

OVERALL: except the Styx (very personal opinion) those are good ships, even if not astonishing. They can do their role for a fair price and have a serious weaponry for their point cost.

<
CRUISERS

Devastation: very good ship. It is like an Imperial Dictator, but has 2 lances in each side and a prow battery that can shot in the sides, so in fact it is like a Lunar with launch bays if it attacks on the side. Well worth it to provide the needed aircraft screen in low point battles where the Styx and Despoiler are not around to help their smaller brothers. It is better than its imperial equivalent, the Dictator, that is more expensive and has less side firepower. 190

<
Murder: Good ship as well if you compare it with imperial
equivalents. Good side weaponry (10) and 2 lances in the prow, all with a medium or long range. I think there are better options in the fleet, though. If you want prow lances, better a Hades heavy cruiser, that has double number of prow lances for +30 points, and higher side firepower, adding 2 lances to the mix. If you want side firepower better the Slaughter (that can pack up to WS 30/14 (shorter range,
but a higher damage potential)) or the Acheron, that is a lance platform. The Murder is an intermediate vessel, but for the extra 30 points I find a Hades MUCH more flexible and powerful overall. In general it can be considered a second category Hades. If you don't have those extra 30 points to buy the Hades, go for the murder, but it is a second best even if it is not a bad ship at all. 170

<
Carnage: WB=16 a 45 cm or less. Massed medium range firepower vessel and it is good at it. Not bad at all for a line cruiser. Packs more firepower than a retribution Imperial battleship, and that being a simple line cruiser. The lack of lances might be annoying sometimes but not by much. Specially if you can take other stuff like Idolators and Hades to compensate for that. It is a medium range mobile battery. 180

<

Slaughter: It is like an upgraded Lunar. (2 lances,
WB=8) and can upgrade its firepower with the front battery for a total of up to 14 . Worse frontal punch than a lunar but much better side punch. It is quite a bargain at 165 points, less than what an escort squadron with similar firepower would cost you. It is as fast as an escort as well, a thing most cruisers would be envious of (and they are) ;) The downside in all that is that it is quite short in range, and hence only suited for close range dog fights, even if he excels here. A pair of them acting together can be the bane of quite
some more expensive enemy ships there. 165

<it) they can quickly over-take when the time is right and then you'll have tigers in a sheep pen!

OVERALL: those ships are simply great, except the murder, that could be better for its cost, but hey. Well worth buys and the workhorses of the chaos fleet

<


ESCORTS

Idolator: Slightly better than a firestorm. 45

<<45pts for an escort is a bit of a risk, put one in each sqdrn to give that lance a shot even when Braced, plus it will have a bullet shiled of cheaper escorts.

Infidel: torpedoes 2, WB 2. Armour 5+. Better than a cobra (moves 30 as well) but costs 40 points.

<incomming enemy torps (to save on fighters).

Iconoclast: WB=3. 4+ armour. Worse than a Sword class frigate, but at 30 points is not bad, specially when you have infidels at 40 points. They get swapped armour and costs there.

<. Otherwise take a Slaughter for fast firepower, unless you really need the manuevrablity of an escort.

In general Massed weapon battery fire fleet. The fleet is more suited for a side fire kind of battle than for a frontal attack. Better to surround the enemy. It has way more firepower in line ships than regular imperial ships even if their prow weaponry is quite lame when not combined with the side weapons. Being a Left/front/right combo, the weapons in the prow (mostly weapon batteries) are great to combine with the side weapons. In a frontal engagement the massed torpedo salvos and nova cannons can tear them apart, but once the side/rear attacks come into play the imperials might find themselves in dire problems.

<until they get really close where you have the Devs fighters or very carfully placed boarding torps.

Comments, suggestions, flames, nova cannon shots in my head? :)

<:o)

<
<

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 Post subject: Main Book Chaos Ships Analysis
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 12:25 am 
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Xavi,
Thanks for the GW link and for the yahoo list "quote"!
I guess most of the times the choices made depend on personal prespective over the game, and the way you like to play you fleet...

Cheers
Axt


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 Post subject: Main Book Chaos Ships Analysis
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2003 10:47 am 
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Personally, I think it?s just the other way round:
in smaller (1000-1500 points) games, there isn?t enough firepower available to really bother a battleship with 4 shields, so a battleship is a kind of unassailable fortress that has nothing to fear.
In bigger games, battleships can be beaten to dust by the available concentration of fire.


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