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Eldar MMS : A Dying Race

blackhorizon

Post subject: Eldar MMS : A Dying Race

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:53 am

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Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:40 pm
Posts: 2842
Location: Netherlands

The Eldar MMS discussion sparked forth the following:

How is Dying Race best represented in Battlefleet Gothic?

Here are the contenders:

I) Increase point value of ships

II) Use a Special Victory Point Table:

Dying Race: The Eldar are a race that is on the
decline: that is, the rate of death exceeds the rate of
birth. As such the Eldar can ill afford any losses in
battle. To represent this the following victory point
conditions apply to the Eldar:
? Capital ships which are destroyed give away 150%
Victory Points.
? Capital ships which are left as a hulk give away
100% Victory Points.
? Capital ships which are crippled give away 50%
Victory Points.
? Capital ships which are crippled and disengage
give away 50% Victory Points.
? Capital ships which disengage give away 10%
Victory Points.
? Eldar escorts give away Victory Points
individually, not on a squadron basis.
? Eldar do not benefit from ?Holding the field?
regarding enemy ships.

III) Dying Race - 'Demiurg Style'

When reduced to 2 hits, Eldar capital ships may do nothing except attempt to disengage, moving towards the nearest celestial phenomena or table edge to do so (player discretion). Disabled Eldar ships may not fire or use any special orders except BFI. Disabled Eldar ships give 100% VPs to the opponent. Destroyed Eldar capital ships give +50% VPs. Disabled ships are ignored for target priority purposes and do not count their launch bays towards the fleets' AC limit.
Note: Disabled ships must try to avoid danger wherever possible. Flying into an asteroid field to hide is fine, deliberately flying into an enemy torpedo salvo is not fine.

IV) Something else?

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CyberShadow

Post subject: Eldar MMS : A Dying Race

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:41 pm

Swarm Tyrant

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9338
Location: Singapore

Personally, I am very much against the idea of raising points values to represent 'hard to get' technology in any sense. What this is doing is effectively making one race worse than the others, based on background alone. That may be fine for 'fluff nutters' but the average player just wont use the race. You may as well just say that a dying race can only use 80% of the normal points values in a game. Would you play that?

There are really two questions being asked here. If a race is 'dying', how does this affect what they bring to the battle, and how does it affect their behaviour when they get there.

The special victory point table works well to reflect the behaviour on the battlefield, making the player protect their assets a little better than they would normally.

When it comes to arriving at the game, tailored force org charts may also work - something like forcing the player to spend a certain number of points on 'support' - whatever that might be (off table torpedoes, etc).

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Admiral d'Artagnan

Post subject: Eldar MMS : A Dying Race

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:00 pm

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Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:56 pm
Posts: 238

I'd say a different kind of VP table, not focusing on individual ships but rather the fleet as a whole. Necron is the one race who will really hurt at losing even one of their ships. So give a different take for Eldar by making them hurt when they lose a lot of their ships.

If the Eldar fleet loses a third of its ships, they give away so & so VP. If they lose half, they give away higher VP and must pass an Ld check to stay on the table. Eldar losing 3/4ths of its ships and their fleet will attempt to disengage as well as giving up a higher VP than the one they lost at the halfway point.

Something like

Eldar losing 1/3 of the ships (round up) on the table, they give away total points of ships lost x 1.25.

Eldar losing 1/2 of the ships (round up) on the table, they give away total points of ships lost x 1.5 and must pass an Ld check at -1 if they want to remain on the table (-2 if the Eldar commander's ship is also lost).

Eldar losing 3/4ths of the ships (round up) on the table, they give away total points of ships lost x 2 and must automatically attempt to disengage with a +1 bonus.

This I feel presents a realistic idea of how a Dying Race would react when facing higher and higher losses.

The first condition, they mainly are losing resource and can still be recovered.

The second one, they're taking heavy losses. They can still fight but they also realize can probably do better another day.

The third one, they realize their opponent is a tough nut to crack and decides that it's better for them to cut their losses and fight another day.

It's still not easy to achieve these conditions, whether by MSM or MMS rules, hence the VP table won't be too much of a factor.

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blackhorizon

Post subject: Eldar MMS : A Dying Race

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:46 am

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Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:40 pm
Posts: 2842
Location: Netherlands

Thanks to both of you.

Admiral, one question: when you mention 1/3 or 1/2 of the fleet is that:

I) Number of hitpoints in the fleet
II) Number of vessels in the fleet
III) Number of point values in the fleet

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Admiral d'Artagnan

Post subject: Eldar MMS : A Dying Race

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:47 am

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Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:56 pm
Posts: 238

To make it simple, the number of ships on the table.

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blackhorizon

Post subject: Eldar MMS : A Dying Race

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:52 am

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Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:40 pm
Posts: 2842
Location: Netherlands

Okay, I shall throw the idea into the MMS group and see their opinion.

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Admiral d'Artagnan

Post subject: Eldar MMS : A Dying Race

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:41 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:56 pm
Posts: 238

Yes I saw the post. Destroying 1/2 to 3/4 of X points of a fleet can be viable as well. Anyway, the idea is there. Up to you guys how you want to do it if you intend to go through this line of thought for Dying Race.

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blackhorizon

Post subject: Eldar MMS : A Dying Race

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:43 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:40 pm
Posts: 2842
Location: Netherlands

When you vote something else, please explain. :whistle:

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Project Distant Darkness
Eldar MMS

GothiComp Hall of Fame
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=19176

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Xavi

Post subject: Eldar MMS : A Dying Race

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:34 am

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Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2003 12:30 am
Posts: 939
Location: University of Essex, Colchester, UK (soon to be Brighton, Sussex, UK)

Special VP table "necron style". That makes each loss painful for the eldar player. It also makes escorts count. otherwise you will be punishing taking capital ships but no problems at all if you have an escort fleet and you get totally massacred.

So necron style for me: more VP for destroyed/crippled capital ships and escorts giving VPs on a ship by ship basis instead of on an escort level basis.

Cheers,

Xavi

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Darquewing

Post subject: Eldar MMS : A Dying Race

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:42 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 2

In all honesty, I really hate the altered VP table. I would rather have ships come at a premium price. By using VP tables that inflate what your opponent earns is the same as saying, "My fleet is waaay better than yours. So if you kill ANYTHING in it, you'll be doing good."

I also think modified VP tables look like a band-aid fix over unbalanced fleets/armies.

I would prefer higher point costing ships that are a bit harder to kill. As I don't think a dying race would really ply the stars in ships that can be blown out of the void by accidentally wandering into some debris.

I could possibly see a VP bonus to the opponent for destroying a percentage of an Eldar fleet, but not trumped up points just for a single escort. Just look at Hemlocks and Shadowhunters. They are minimally crewed ships. Designed that way, so that if they are destroyed, the loss isn't as great.

As Corsair fleets are pirates I think they might run rather than fight to the death. I think CWE would die in place if they are in naval combat, as the situation is usually dire.

I can't come up with one thing in particular to make the fluff fit in, but however it goes I hope that the end result does not favor escort fleets over cruiser fleets, or vice-versa.

My two cents on the subject.

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blackhorizon

Post subject: Eldar MMS : A Dying Race

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:55 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:40 pm
Posts: 2842
Location: Netherlands

I hope to release 1.9 this year.

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Project Distant Darkness
Eldar MMS

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