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Fleet Turret Esssay

 Post subject: Fleet Turret Esssay
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:28 am 
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Battle Fleet Gothic and
‘Fleet Turrets’
An Essay by Galactic Fringe

I have had the opportunity to work on some perceived problems with the way people want to play Battle Fleet Gothic.  One of the changes I worked on was the simultaneous movement/battle rules.  In so doing, I tried to keep every aspect possible of the original game.  The double move of ordinance presented a pricklier problem than any other part of combat.  Working on this problem led me to another ‘thorn’ people complain about.  Assault Boats.  Other ordinance is, unfortunately, along for the ride with assault boats, so any change affects a lot of combat capability.  Most complaints to reach my ears were not so much that there is too much ordinance (although I have heard that one as well), but unrealistic combat value of Assault boats.  In particular how these ’picked crews’ on little assault craft can overwhelm a frigate crew, yet that same frigate crew could itself make a boarding attack against a cruiser.  What? Is the frigate crew unarmed until the attempt at boarding?  If not, how can such small, however well trained attack teams, reach vital systems on a ship massively more heavily populated than even a swarm of little boats?  And why can’t destroyers, whose only reason for existence is to protect larger ships from smaller boats, not be able to effectively defend themselves, let alone larger ships?  Historically, the original name was “Torpedo Boat Destroyersâ€Â


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 Post subject: Fleet Turret Esssay
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:38 am 
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I would use it, but restrict it to only covering ships in the same squadron, to reinforce squadron usage. Also comms problems :) Plus destroyers have to get in the way, not just be near the bigger ships! (Maybe then we would see proper fleet deployments!)

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 Post subject: Fleet Turret Esssay
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:59 am 
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Basically, Squadrons usage was/is the intent.  Although I believe escorts should be able to 'escort' larger vessels.  Because I state that the 15cm range should not include making attacks against ordinance, a squadron of escorts 'flanking' a larger vessel/squadron and within 15cm, ought to be able to assist in 'shooting down' attacking ordinance.  In the real world, swarms of small attack craft would not ignore intervening escorts totally, and escorts would attack approaching attack craft with everything they've got.
I had hoped to get some thinking caps on, and I'm thrilled to get a response so quickly.  Thanks, "The Real Chris"
G.F.


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 Post subject: Fleet Turret Esssay
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:12 am 
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Sorry for the brevity of the last post, but I was interrupted so many times trying to get those few lines in, well.....
I just wanted to clarify the 'real world' part of my note.  An 'all powerful' player over-seeing the whole battle will apply tactics to include 'ignoring' the closest threat, and concentrate on the most valuable threat.  Since having escorts mixed in a squadron with 'big boys' is not a perfect answer, either, I feel that giving escorts the ability to 'cover' each other, AND the 'big boys' in a task force this way will better represent why escorts were built in the first place.  Protect the fleet.  A respectable attack ability isn't a bad idea for an escort class either.
A friend looking over my shoulder asked if the whole squadron of escorts could 'lend' fire support to a capitol ship, if one escort was in 15cm range.  Good Question!  
Only however many actual escorts are within 15cm could add their defense.  If three escorts are spaced 15cm apart, and the leftmost escort is attacked by torpedoes, only the center escort could lend a hand, the further of the three being out of range.  
I sometimes forget that what's obvious to long time gamers is less so to new folks.  Thanks guy!
I didn't mention in my opening that quite a few gamers around here, more than half, think escorts are worthless, and rarely take them in a game.  I think other game groups have had similar player attitudes toward escorts.  I hope to make escorts worth having on the table, rather than left in the box under it.
I do have a way of going on..........so I'm going to catch myself and say:
Later!
G.F.


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 Post subject: Fleet Turret Esssay
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:48 pm 
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A cure for escorts is to make them half price or similar fix. Perhaps go and read up how destroyers and frigates operated during the first world war (the battleship era) and the second (the carrier era).

An even more radical change would be to make something torpedoes untargetable by main guns, so only fighters can take them down. As the most useful escorts fire torps this would be a boost. Alternatively so cruisers don't get it say only 1 or 2 or maybe 3 torp waves can't be targeted.




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 Post subject: Fleet Turret Esssay
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:10 am 
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Hi there, The Real Chris-
    I have been studying history as a vocation and a passion for about 45 years.  Most of it Military History.  Including Naval history from Salamis to Okinawa (actually earlier, but Salamis was first to jump into my head.)
    Are you trying to allude to the 'picket line' the US navy tried as a counter to Kamakazi raids?  The destroyer screen that surrounds battle fleets to counter subs and aircraft?  Or recon ahead of the fleet?  Or close-in fire support for beach landings?  Perhaps you're refering to the action in the Surigao Straights, where destroyer torpedo attacks removed 75% of the Japanese gun strength before ever the American big guns fired a shot?  The action off Samar where destroyers and aircraft severly damaged, and turned back, a vastly superior battleship led Japanese attack?  Perhaps the French and British destroyers in the Adriatic sea in WW1?  Those kinds of roles (missions)?
    I don't want you to think I'm throwing bricks.  I'm not.  But I entertain the notion that I have an informed opinion.  
    Precisely because of my knowledge of the past role of the destroyer, and what I've read the BFG designers intended, I find I agree with people who are critical of the ease escorts are swept away by Assault boats (and some other points, for another discussion.).

I appreciate your suggestions, by the way.  Your ideas could be a workable house rule(s), but look again at the simplicity and lack of documentation needed with my suggested house rule.  Reduce the power of ordinance by having escorts behave as escorts.  Escorts won't be invulnerable, nor will battleships.  Just not so vulnerable to elimination (escorts) or 'stacks' of critical hits (capital ships).  I vote for the easiest.  After all, I'm in this for the fun, not frustration.
Later!
G.F.


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 Post subject: Fleet Turret Esssay
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:44 am 
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I'm not saying you don't know about how they were used, indeed you doubt know a lot more than me (preferring as I do land and air), it was more of a question than a suggestion! Destroyers main function 1st half of the 20th century seemed to revolve entirely around torpedoes (with anti sub actions added on), with WW2 seeing them get a belated anti air role.

Those battles you list sound quite interesting, I had no idea destroyers featured against Jap battleships off Samar and thought it entirely the work of air assets. But how to get all that in for escorts?

I've always thought of BFG as WWI with a bit of WW2 thrown in. What ways are there for escorts to act that don't involve them becoming cheap extra turrets for other ships no doubt formed in a second line behind the main gun line?

And what would be the practical effect of this? Chaos long range fleets could gun the escorts then hit the capitals with ordnance, while remaining very well protected against imperial torpedoes and whatever aerospace assets were around.

In nearly every scenario you are better off with cruisers currently, how to fundamentally change that? The fleet turrets gives them one role in a Chaos fleet and a delaying role in an Imperial fleet and powers up Tau messengers a bit more :) But doesn't do much for them otherwise. How to make it mad to leave how without them? Or just accept we are playing the battle of Jutland and any Destroyers around are toast.

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 Post subject: Fleet Turret Esssay
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:16 am 
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You know, The Real Chris, you raise some interesting questions.  
    I have had escort squadrons chewed up, or just gone, because I stuck them out to far and a capitol ship had no other target. Ouch! I try to use escorts to protect the larger ships from the smaller ones - especially the torpedo firing ones - and as a quick sortie against a crippled ship trying to get away.  When using the house rule for turrets, I try to string out a 'picket line' that will intercept ordinance.  Note "try".  I often get enemy escorts thrown at my attempts at a picket line.  Even if I nail more of them than I lose, any holes in my defense line lets through the ordinance I'm trying to keep out.  The ordinance being obliged to engage my escorts, when markers come into base contact, and using expanded turrets rules, ordinance get thinned out.  Of course, some escorts are lost too.
    In a way, the Orks have a close approach to what escorts should be.  Their class of escort that can launch up to six torpedoes (Other races should have a fixed capacity of four), comes closest to how escorts ought to be used, by most everybody.  But the designers gave the IN a mere 2 torps per destroyer, for example.  I think torpedo bombers are a better investment when it comes to attacking big ships. My IN destroyers usually deliver the coup-de-gras, rather than attempt 'waves' of torpedoes.
    I play each race differently.  My opponents want desperately to sweep my escorts as early as possible, because I have so often delivered a one-two punch with them, especially with Orks.  My short range (15cm), but heavy WB armed Ork escorts follow behind as the fleet closes on the enemy, then press in to add their firepower.  My Ork torpedo armed escorts try to position on the enemy flanks, and within 30cm (one turn's torp speed), to add still more damage with whatever torp strength is rolled.  If I should detach my escorts (whatever race I'm playing), my opponent can't ignore them.  Concentration of firepower wins battles. Divide my opponents attention, while concentrating my own, should make avery tough day for my battle buddies.
    I know this is not the place to discuss tactics, but T.R.C. asked. I just wanted to head off a note to that effect.  To continue:
    I try to take escorts for every mission, except "Cruiser Clash" natch, if for no other reason then to figure out how to use them, and vary the uses of them where possible, to 'distract' my opponents at least, and maybe do some telling damage.
    To use escorts in BFG like destroyers in WW2, each type would have to have a number of torpedoes.  The "equalizer" for use on big ships, the "Tin Can" men called them.  I don't wish to re-design the game totally, so every escort with torpedoes can't happen.  Besides, I'm lazy.  I don't want to track all that ordinance all over the place.
    You mention Chaos long range guns.  Yes, if escorts are the best target, I'LL shoot them up too.  But distract your Chaos opponent with a threat he can't ignore, except at his peril, and your escorts should still be around to get in a lick.  In WW2, where gun battles took place in the Med and Pacific, destroyers hung back, or ran around enemy fleet's flanks, during daylight battles.  Or they would get in the way of the big guns.  At night, destroyers made head on attacks on big ships, with darkness as cover.  The battle off Samar Island is all the more remarkable because the "Tin Cans" charged in, in broad daylight.  This so confounded the Japanese commanders, that they believed the whole US 7th fleet was on the way into the battle.  So they retreated.
    In BFG, I feel it is only right that if escorts 'get in the way' of big guns, they should go down in flames.
    The rub (from the point of view of my group(s) I attend) is that escorts can't get the chance to attempt any role, if they are left in the box because anyone with Assault Boats zap them.  And only miss one-in-six times (on average).  We never put limits on ordinance (only as many as there are launch bays on the table at once) because we feel that a better limit would be a "launch capacity" limit, but that limit was simulated by rolling doubles, so we left it alone.  Besides, we also felt that only one squadron of bombers on the board for "x" turns until they were blasted or finished attacking, was just as unrealistic.  If a commander has 'em, he's gonna wanna launch 'em 'till there ain't no more!  So in our big games a lot of Assault Boats could 'stack' a lot of critical hits on capitol ships, as well as make a clean sweep of escorts, to the point of feeling just wrong.  That problem was reduced by siezing on an earlier proposal for "Fleet Turretss".  Ordinance doesn't go away.  Just gets whittled down.
    A historic illustration.  At the close of WW2, the Japanese launched SEVEN THOUSAND Kamakazi planes at the Allied fleet near Okinawa Island.  128 got through to cause 2,600+ casualties.  The rest of the planes fell to air interception, and picket lines of destroyers and capitol ships.  The destroyer, USS Laffy, was hit by five kamakazi, two torpedoes, and four bombs.  She did not sink, and accounted for 28 enemy planes.  Other destroyers were sunk (six that month) but helped thin the attacks trying to get at the "big boys".
    I find it hard to ignore history.  I can "suspend disbelief" about cities in space, pushed around space by engines the size of the Empire State building, and unleashing weapons that would make "Independance Day" aliens extinct in the first seconds.  But to imagine roles for different types of ships, and then eliminate them and their roles with a "design anomally", only frustrates some of us.
    Horizon can confirm - I do go on - so I'll leave some unsaid, for now.
    In closing:  Have you ever heard of Steve Jackson, and the "Fuzzy-Wuzzy" principle?  A name Steve gave an aspect of game design.  I remember that when I find a rule that grinds the gears.  If you have not heard, I'll be glad to relate (but a shorter story - promise!).
    Oh, and there were a LOT of ships at Jutland, not just big boys, and the losses from that day included destroyers and cruisers (damaged as well as sunk), but most focus is on the big gun duel, and the little guys get overlooked.
G.F.


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 Post subject: Fleet Turret Esssay
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:28 am 
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Fuzzy wuzzies? The UK reference for that is that they don't like it up them Mr Mannering.

Maybe should go the whole hog, rather than just fleet defence turrets totally downgrade their anti cap ship armament (smaller calaber guns :) ), keep the anti destroyer armament the same, massively upgrade the anti ordnance element and give them a 30cm torp shot (that can't combine and can't keep going, after 30cm its removed). So the main weapon ignores shields but can be dealt with by other 1 hit wonders who also keep a heads up for other ordnance flying around.

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 Post subject: Fleet Turret Esssay
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:02 am 
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Well T.R.Chris,
    I presume "the whole hog" is not serious. And I wondered if "Fuzzy-Wuzzy-Principle" might have a different spin across the pond.  In USA, 'fuzzy wuzzy...' is cute phrase a female would start in on when confronted by a new puppy or kitten, usually in a high pitched voice, and liberally sprinkled with other adjectives about cuteness.
    Steve Jackson used the phrase when he lamented a little detail that became a LARGE problem with a new game he had just designed (when he was just beginning).  The game was/is called OGRE.  Giant computer driven tanks with armor measured in thicknes of meters.  Opposing the Ogres (usually one at a time) were heavy tanks, light tanks, infantry, heavy artillary, and GEV's(Ground Effect Vehicles).  In designing the game Steve and fellow gamers and designers playtested rigoresly, picking from each of the types available in one form of balanced force, or another.  Maybe weighted in heavy artillary, for example, but still numbers of the other types to try to slow, and hopefully destroy, the monsterous killing machine.  It was fun to play, and sold well, at first.  Then complaints started to come in.  The Ogre, fiercesome machine it's supposed to be, can NEVER win!  The defender need only take one type - the GEV's - about 20 could be had for the points of a balanced force - and the little lightweights 'took out' the Ogre every time.  They are only armed with a tiny rail gun, but so many at once, and because they had a double move (close in, fire, back off out of range), they chipped away at it until immobilized and destroyed, long before the Ogre could complete its mission.  
    Steve was dumbfounded.  The least likely part of his game came to the forefront in a manner that people didn't want to play his game.  No fun if one side ALWAYS wins.  He and his playtesters never thought someone would just buy the smallest part of the defending force alone, and a lot of them.
    Steve redesigned and re-released his game.  Fewer GEV counters in the box, and new point cost, and a verbal limit on GEV numbers (there were only 10 in a box now, not 20).
    Steve added a "editorial" where he called the problem the "Fuzzy Wuzzy Principle", where game designers miss, or overlook, a little detail that us out here in the trenches exploit to the maximum.  Often changing the way the game is played far outside the designer's intent.
    Since even the game designers of BFG recognized there were some problems, and tried to change them, and further, gave us all permission in both rulebooks to modify the game to get over such rough spots, I took the liberty of adressing the frustrations of my game groups.  I want to make the least changes I can.  Not go "Whole Hog..." and completely re-write the game.  Some fellows went to a lot of trouble to put all this together, I'm too lazy to redo all that.  And I want to attract more gamers.  So a few house rules that I think others might like, because the crew around here did.
Hmm... outa time again.....
G.F.


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