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Craftworld Lugganath v1.21

 Post subject: Craftworld Lugganath v1.21
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:51 pm 
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Welcome to Craftworld Lugganath, a list that has sprung out of the realization that there happen to exist a common denominator between Harlequins (championed by Ginger), Corsairs (championed by Kyuss), Fir-Iolarion (championed by scaric), and Craftworld Eldar.

The fluff for this minor Craftworld manages to combine all of these, which makes it a very interesting basis to make a list upon (on the flipside, this means it is also kind of dependent on what happens in all those other lists, as none of them are approved yet, and may change quite a lot. The stats, rules and composition for units and formations that are taken from, or inspired by, those lists are thus very much open for debate).

The main ideas around the list are to make a supremely mobile Craftworld Eldar and aggressive raiding-type list that is heavily dependent on Webway Portals and that mostly uses Harlequins instead of Aspect Warriors. There's also been an attempt to provide fluffy replacements for the more commonly seen Eldar formations (such as the ubiquitous Rangers).

Battle Reports with v1.2b:
Vs E-UK Skitarii

Update v1.1 25/9
Done some initial playtesting vs Norto in TTS, and done some changes to the list:

Partial change list
-> Harlequins can be BTS
-> 2 Warhosts needed for each Harlequin formation
-> Most Harlequin formations have to be mounted in Venoms as standard
-> Slight changes to Harlequin formation names and composition: Teleporting mimes now called "Devourer's Thirst" and "Hero's Path" renamed to "Dance Without End" (since it includes the Solitaire, who if I understand it correctly always shows up for this particular number). This is now the biggest harlequin formation of the bunch.
-> Guardian Warhost now 5 Guardians & 5 Venoms for 250, bringing them more in line with a similar formation in Dark Eldar
-> Waspwalkers now cost 150pts for 4
-> No more Firestorm on the Aspect Warriors
-> 4+ Holofield on the Wraithknights
-> Added Invulnerable Save to the Dire Avenger Exarch (that's kind of crap).

First Bat-Rep (v1.2b) 4/10
So the first battle report is in, testing some potential changes for v1.2. I'm waiting with updating the list until we see what happens to the Wraithknights in the Fir-Iolarion list... The version playtested is identical to the ones in Fir-Iolarion v4.2.6 equipped with 2 x Wraithcannons (which seems to be the best loadout).

Update v1.21 18/10
Think I've got enough changes lined up now to motivate a new version of the list:

-> Re-formulated the Holofield rule a bit, in line with what has been discussed as a general change of making it a Holofield (x) rule instead of fixed 3+.
-> Harlequins can now re-enter the Webway just like in the Grand Masque list. Our playtest of that list indicated that it's not terribly overpowered as the risk of getting locked into the Webway is quite real.
-> Jetbikes and Wraithknights now gained the Lugganath prefixes.
-> Jetbikes got a Shuriken Cannon and 5+ FF
-> Wraithknights got 4+ Holofield and +25pts
-> The Warp Hunter is out and is replaced with Fire Prisms. All 5 Falcons in a Swords of Vaul formation may be replaced with Fire Prisms for 50pts
-> Exarchs combined into one profile, with all having an extra attack in FF.
-> Master Mime gains Leader
-> Shadowseer's Shards of Light ability is EA +2 (FF).
-> Solitaire now has 3+ Holofield, 6+ Invulnerable
-> Harlequin Troupe and Mimes now both have 3+ CC.
-> Skyweaver Jetbikes got 40cm move.
-> Voidweaver replaced the Haywire Cannon with a Shuriken Cannon.
-> The Voidweaver's Prismatic Cannon now has 45cm, AP5+/AT3+, L, making it more similar to the Fire Prism's Prism Cannon.
-> Lugganath Vampire Hunter now named Corsair Vampire Hunter.

edit v1.21: Fixed some typos and renamed the special rule "Veil of Tears" into "Dance of Shadows" (another Shadowseer psychic power. And it's got the word "Shadows" in it, which seems fitting) to prevent conflict with the Grand Masque list. Also re-formulated the wording of that special rule, making it completely clear that it affects all FF fire against the Shadowseer's formation. Realized that the previous wording didn't really read like that.

A temporary Army Forge for v1.21 can be found @:
https://magnusdurr.github.io/snapfire/w ... nath_NETEA

Also check em out in TTS!: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 1542878515


Attachments:
Craftworld Lugganath v1,21.pdf [146.7 KiB]
Downloaded 6 times

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Last edited by Mrdiealot on Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:25 pm, edited 16 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Craftworld Lugganath v1.0 Beta
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:28 pm 
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As with your Corsairs list, this looks interesting but I will confine my comments to the Harlequins.
I still believe that these formations should cost a bit more than an Aspect Warhost to avoid them being an auto-include, and the formation unit number and composition should be adjusted accordingly. So, I still think that 225, 275 and even 300 points is too cheap for the Harlequin formations, even though they often need transport to become really effective.

And I would still like to see how the Harlies perform in this ‘allied’ role, especially since they do not provide good support for other formations, which is one of the key E:A game mechanics.


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 Post subject: Re: Craftworld Lugganath v1.0 Beta
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:48 pm 
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I think the Harlequin formations needs some playtesting before we can be sure what the "correct" cost is...

But I'll note that 6 Warpspiders usually cost 225pts. The question I'd pose is: Which Harlequin formations of 6 Harlequins are better than 6 Warpspiders (which are pretty darn good)? Especially considering that the Warpspiders got First Strike FF (and some Harlequins has got little to no FF at all)?

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 Post subject: Re: Craftworld Lugganath v1.0 Beta
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:39 pm 
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Getting 2x 3+ FS attacks with infiltrate, and the other Harlie rules, makes them better IMO (especially with RA that we have dropped for the moment). And then there are the other rules and characters, in particular the Solitaire, which makes the formation even more effective in assault - which is what they should be. The only question I have is whether they are sufficiently ‘survivable’ in assault to reflect the ‘fluff’.


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 Post subject: Re: Craftworld Lugganath v1.0 Beta
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:22 pm 
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Ginger wrote:
Getting 2x 3+ FS attacks with infiltrate, and the other Harlie rules, makes them better IMO (especially with RA that we have dropped for the moment). And then there are the other rules and characters, in particular the Solitaire, which makes the formation even more effective in assault - which is what they should be. The only question I have is whether they are sufficiently ‘survivable’ in assault to reflect the ‘fluff’.


I'm glad I'm not the only one immediately having a double-check at some of the excessive FS-infiltrate-2+EA-MW 'aspect warrior equivalents'.

Points boost, without question.


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 Post subject: Re: Craftworld Lugganath v1.0 Beta
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:47 pm 
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The basic Harlequin (in CW Lugganath at least) has 1 First Strike attack and 1 normal one on 3+ in CC, so it's not that bad. And most Character Extra Attacks have Sniper at the moment.

It is also worth keeping in mind just how inferior CC is compared to FF under most scenarios. It's a lot harder to make useful engages, and if you run into Skimmers you're out of luck completely.

I'm sort of aiming to make the basic Harlequin formation about as useful as the Warp Spiders, and right now I think they are... Especially the thing that they can use already used portals. But this is a Beta after all, and the stats remain a suggestion.

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 Post subject: Re: Craftworld Lugganath v1.0 Beta
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:20 pm 
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Ah, OK
Well with a single FS attack, what you have then are essentially Howling Banshees with a minor buff to the armour. HBs are distinctly sub-par compared with WS precisely for the reasons you have outlined above:-
  • FF attacks with 4+ armour allows the WS to pick the weak spot in an enemy formation and concentrate an attack there.
  • by contrast, HBs must close to CC which enables more enemy units to engage them (from the target or support fomations) while their 5+ armour means they inevitably pick up casualties.
There was a very lengthy debate on finding ways to improve the HBs, which centred around improving their assault capabilities to 3+ and even 2+, but these all failed to make much difference.

The "Assassin rule", essentially a MW attack against infantry only (or even some way of providing a variable attack) was ultimately rejected. However, improving their assault was only part of the solution IMO - and this is one of the main reasons why I felt that the Harlequins needed a boost to their 'survivability' - though it causes other problems with shooting.

Furthermore, by definition the Harlequins are more effective (and arguably harder to hit) than WS, so they definitely need 2x FS attacks, and arguably better resilience as well. Hence the connundrum and why it has taken so long to present acceptable Harlequin stats, and consequently several attempts at a list.


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 Post subject: Re: Craftworld Lugganath v1.0 Beta
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:02 pm 
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Interesting to see the discussion around Banshees. Right now I'm actually leaning towards something similar to what was proposed with giving Banshees transport as standard. Perhaps if the Harlequin formations came with Harlequin Venoms as standard, a lot of the issues would go away... They would be a lot more expensive (solving the "auto-include" issue), they would be a lot more nasty in FF (The Venoms I've included have 4+ FF) and they would become real heavy hitters both when engaging out of a Webway as well as when consolidating after combat.

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 Post subject: Re: Craftworld Lugganath v1.1
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:37 pm 
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List updated to v1.1

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 Post subject: Re: Craftworld Lugganath v1.1
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:32 am 
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I do like this list.

Army builder is a massive plus giving us something you with. This is probably the reasoning I'm toying with this list compared to the others.

Played dark eldar a bit but not so much eldar. But I feel like this is all more relying on gates and assaults like dark eldar? I'm also guessing high risk high reward keeping the venoms loaded for the harlequins to keep enough distant but keeping the assault threat range for the CC required?

I like you dropped the guardian size. I think 6 and 6 was to good for the points. Also lowering the holo suit saves.

Happy to run some games on TTS.

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 Post subject: Re: Craftworld Lugganath v1.1
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:47 am 
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Quote:
Army builder is a massive plus giving us something you with. This is probably the reasoning I'm toying with this list compared to the others.


Using an up-to-date army builder file when developing and providing it upon release really adds so much to understanding lists. I think everyone should be doing it, but there's of course a slight learning curve involved.

Quote:
Played dark eldar a bit but not so much eldar. But I feel like this is all more relying on gates and assaults like dark eldar? I'm also guessing high risk high reward keeping the venoms loaded for the harlequins to keep enough distant but keeping the assault threat range for the CC required?


Had not thought about it this way before, but I guess you're right. They can't really do air-assaults like Dark Eldar though, but the triple-retain and Harlequin Webway portal rules probably more than compensates for that.

Quote:
I like you dropped the guardian size. I think 6 and 6 was to good for the points. Also lowering the holo suit saves.


Yeah, it was a bit OP before. I think they're about right now. And Guardians in Venoms is a really fun unit, really forcing you to use the weedy Guardians in an offensive way.

Will be particularly interesting to see how the Harlequins "perform" in playtest.

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 Post subject: Re: Craftworld Lugganath v1.2
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:49 pm 
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List updated to v1.2

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 Post subject: Re: Craftworld Lugganath v1.21
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:42 pm 
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Realized that the Shadowseer's special ability (now renamed into Dance of Shadows) didn't at all say what I thought it said. Updated the file to correct that.

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