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Best tournament list - Epic UK or NetEA

 Post subject: Re: Best tournament list - Epic UK or NetEA
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:34 am 
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Haha, sounds like a very fun weekend!

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 Post subject: Re: Best tournament list - Epic UK or NetEA
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:30 pm 
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Monkeyboy wrote:
Before this gets out of hand can I clarify that this should not lead to an international drinking contest in Berlin.


Awwww, but your drinking contest with Dan1314 was glorious. It was possibly even more one sided than your game against him. ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Best tournament list - Epic UK or NetEA
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:47 pm 
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StevekCole wrote:
Monkeyboy wrote:
Before this gets out of hand can I clarify that this should not lead to an international drinking contest in Berlin.


Awwww, but your drinking contest with Dan1314 was glorious. It was possibly even more one sided than your game against him. ;-)

My point exactly - would be kamikaze to get involved!

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 Post subject: Re: Best tournament list - Epic UK or NetEA
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:15 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Best tournament list - Epic UK or NetEA
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:51 am 
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Ouch!

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 Post subject: Re: Best tournament list - Epic UK or NetEA
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:37 pm 
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In general i don´t see much well UK lists as i like to have all the freedom i can get on choosing the units, but i can appreciate them for tournaments to reduce the number of possible craziness.

flyingthruwater wrote:
Its horses for courses to me. EpicUK lists are tighter on options and therefore easier to balance but for a casual game NetEA gives a lot more options.

kyussinchains wrote:
RugII wrote:
it's too easy to get trapped in/ trap it in a draw.


I think that is a problem faced by most large-WE lists to be honest, whether they are NetEA or EpicUK, take the Ferals for example, their 57% Draw rate is massively higher than any comparable list with a similar number of games played, althought AMTL is only slightly above average at 36% Draws

From my test games of the NetEA OGBM list, it seems to be a list which is tailor-made for getting winning draws, and many have pointed out similar issues with AMTL (either flavour)

If you lock your BTS objective away into a nigh-unkillable 8-12DC fearless war engine and park a similar war engine between the T&H objectives in your opponent's half, it's almost impossible for some armies to beat because I get the feeling that EA was never designed with all-WE armies in mind....


This part, and now as statistics have been brought in the conversation, makes me think of the difference between what should be and what the data or has happened provide. For example we all know that a less varied list is easier to balance, but the truth is that usually the lists that break the game are usually around or mostly around a single unit, like the Thunderbrick list, Gorgons on DKOK, the Overlords in Squats some time ago, or maybe even Flamers on Chaos.

There is also a bit of that in the discussions about the Titan lists getting more wins by draws than others: it is said a lot that these lists are mainly about winning draws and logic tells us that but the data says that are only a third (both the UK's and apart mine on NetEA's OGBM list) while the average of all the UK lists is 30,06% so it is just a 5-6% difference, and apart from that there is also the issue on why there is many conversations, ideas to fix it and efforts about this issue when it comes to Titan lists, but if looking at the UK page there is several lists with even higher percentages of wins by points but i never heard a thing about it being a problem, like Tyranids (36%), Squats (35%) Iron Warriors (45%), or LaTD (37%), and 5-10 more with almost the same percentages as AMTL's 36%. Only Ferals with its huge 57% gets talks.
This gets me to questions: Why there is much of a perception when it is just a 5-6% more? Why there is so much perception of this problem on Titan lists compared to the others that have as much or more of a problem? Is it maybe more psychological as any other lists is easy to see them crumble and losing guys but a Titan list will finish many games without losing a single unit sometimes even if losing, and they are still as dangerous as they have begun the game? Is it that the reliance on a few TK and MW to deal with them makes the situation more hopeless even if the end result is similar?

flyingthruwater wrote:
Wheres EpicFR on the list? Their take on Biel Tan seems pretty reasonable to be honest


FERC has some interesting things, but has many strange parts that are hard to understand or that look like they weren´t tested much and put by gut feeling, and others like for example the latest with FERC Third Phase Tau, that it is even more powerful than NetEA Vior'la with several units that got a huge change in power for the same points. I suppose it is from them being in a closed process and also with barely not contact with other metas, which reduces the number of points of view and makes pushing strange changes easier.

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Last edited by Abetillo on Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Best tournament list - Epic UK or NetEA
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:06 pm 
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Abetillo wrote:
For example we all know that a less varied list is easier to balance, but the truth is that usually the lists that break the game are usually around or mostly around a single unit, like the Thunderbrick list, Gorgons on DKOK, the Overlords in Squats some time ago, or maybe even Flamers on Chaos.


I’d challenge this a little. Only the thunderhawk list from that lot was actually broken because of spam. I think netea Dkok are overpowered because of access to single warhounds which negates the list’s key weakness, a lack of speed. The overlord squat list was never broken. It crushed everyone at one tournament when run by a very good player in a very specific meta. In addition it was the cheapness of thunderfires that made it competitive. Flamers I’m closer to agreeing with you on.

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 Post subject: Re: Best tournament list - Epic UK or NetEA
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:54 pm 
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I agree with Abetillo on whatever it is Steve disagrees with.

Though I shall explain:
"but if looking at the UK page there is several lists with even higher percentages of wins by points but i never heard a thing about it being a problem, like Tyranids (36%), Squats (35%) Iron Warriors (45%), or LaTD"
This is be wise Epic UK lists only get nerfed after a Scotsman wins with them. Its a huge,well documented conspiracy. (And before you consider siding, remember they voted brexit....)


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 Post subject: Re: Best tournament list - Epic UK or NetEA
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:57 am 
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StevekCole wrote:
Abetillo wrote:
For example we all know that a less varied list is easier to balance, but the truth is that usually the lists that break the game are usually around or mostly around a single unit, like the Thunderbrick list, Gorgons on DKOK, the Overlords in Squats some time ago, or maybe even Flamers on Chaos.


I’d challenge this a little. Only the thunderhawk list from that lot was actually broken because of spam. I think netea Dkok are overpowered because of access to single warhounds which negates the list’s key weakness, a lack of speed. The overlord squat list was never broken. It crushed everyone at one tournament when run by a very good player in a very specific meta. In addition it was the cheapness of thunderfires that made it competitive. Flamers I’m closer to agreeing with you on.
I hate to admit it, but I largely agree with this.

I'm more worried about basic Squat infantry and the bloody annoying huge warmachines than Overlords that struggle to hide.

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 Post subject: Re: Best tournament list - Epic UK or NetEA
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:06 am 
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Raw stats are problematic, and have imo limited value for analysis, as there are two big variables that don't always get taken into account. One is who's playing them, and secondly is who are they playing against.

Take the player variable, if you do a bit of analysis on some of the E-UK stats, take DKoK for instance - averge win ratio is 54%, however if you narrow the field to just championship winners and contenders you increase that win ratio to 63%. In the case of Mike and I you also see wins with the list are 14% higher than our averages. Now this of course isn't entirely down to the list, as by the time both of us started using them we'd already been playing for quite some time, but even so the list clearly performs better than a lot of the others. Squats are another one, with Steve C's superb 68% win ratio being hidden in the overall 46% win ratio.

On played against, this also has a big factor. Again, if you just look at the same 'champions and champion contenders' and take Steve C and I (as the players with currently the best w/d/l ratios). Overall mine is W 61%, L 20%, D 18%, however when you only look at other champions this drops significantly to W 46% L 31% D 23%. Steve C's likewise goes from W 63%, L 16%, D 21% to W 35% L 40% D 25%. Furthermore, those arguably more difficult games make up in my case 38% of my games and 31% of Steve's.

So basically there are lots of skewing factors within those win/loss/draw ratios that can really impact the overall percentages, especially for lists that have been played less and therefore are based on a smaller sample size.

This also has a big impact for a lot of races in whether any of that reduced sample size has actually played them. Take Skitarii and Yme Loc for instance, they've both only been used by this reduced sample size once each, and both times the players win ratio dropped to 33%, which is probably why they've only been used once! You then have other outliers such as Vanaheim, when half of the games have been played by someone with an 18% win ratio with them, while Tim manages a 47% win ratio, which is only a bit below his overall average. As such it could be argued they're actually better than the raw stats would suggest.


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 Post subject: Re: Best tournament list - Epic UK or NetEA
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:42 am 
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Yeah, i know, data is not absolute and there is skewers, same as in opinions and feelings but they can be more objective, thats why i also threw in examples of lists that have lots of games played, like Tyranids, mentioned OGBM which has variety on players and most players got similar results at least in wins by points. Still even ignoring those i mentioned there is plenty of examples around the same as AMTL with plenty of games and there is still the fact that the differences are not big with other lists. Also take into account that any skewer can apply to any of the lists, included Ferals and AMTL, so all is more or less balanced, in general.

But the point still stands on why there is not so much talks about other lists that are around the same (not caring here how close but the fact that are close), and how AMTL is not so much different to all the rest of the lists in the numbers but gets people to talk. Even taking into account he skewers in the statistics there are too many lists close to AMTL in wins by points.

StevekCole wrote:
Abetillo wrote:
For example we all know that a less varied list is easier to balance, but the truth is that usually the lists that break the game are usually around or mostly around a single unit, like the Thunderbrick list, Gorgons on DKOK, the Overlords in Squats some time ago, or maybe even Flamers on Chaos.


I’d challenge this a little. Only the thunderhawk list from that lot was actually broken because of spam. I think netea Dkok are overpowered because of access to single warhounds which negates the list’s key weakness, a lack of speed. The overlord squat list was never broken. It crushed everyone at one tournament when run by a very good player in a very specific meta. In addition it was the cheapness of thunderfires that made it competitive. Flamers I’m closer to agreeing with you on.


Well those were just examples i thought on the spot, you see my point here and that's the important part. But about DKOK i was talking about in the past, when they were truly Death Stars in NetEA, and also in general I was talking here about units that are the main part of the list in importance, not about their numbers, forgot to specify.

Squats' Overlord on the other hand i would like to argue as i think it is like the Thunderbrick list, as the Thunderhawk doesn't make the list, but are the base, even if the Scouts make it possible and competitive, same with Overlords and Thunderfires. How much we fear them or not go into the subjective, but the fact is that both lists put the gears working into talking about changes in those units just after a tournament, and that was were i was pointing to.

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Last edited by Abetillo on Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:33 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Best tournament list - Epic UK or NetEA
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:48 am 
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Agreed Richard. Depends on the players using the list.

Just had a first proper look at the Vaneheim list. As soon as I saw how vulnerable the BTS is and lack of AA it was clearly a relatively weak list. Lots of inherent weaknesses.

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 Post subject: Best tournament list - Epic UK or NetEA
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:48 pm 
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RichardL wrote:
On played against, this also has a big factor. Again, if you just look at the same 'champions and champion contenders' and take Steve C and I (as the players with currently the best w/d/l ratios). Overall mine is W 61%, L 20%, D 18%, however when you only look at other champions this drops significantly to W 46% L 31% D 23%. Steve C's likewise goes from W 63%, L 16%, D 21% to W 35% L 40% D 25%. Furthermore, those arguably more difficult games make up in my case 38% of my games and 31% of Steve's.

So basically there are lots of skewing factors within those win/loss/draw ratios that can really impact the overall percentages, especially for lists that have been played less and therefore are based on a smaller sample size.


Totally agree. There’s also when games are played. I’ve been playing tournaments for around 3 years. If you take games against top players in the first 18 months my win rate is a rather feeble 27% but if you look at roughly the last 18 months (when I actually started winning events) it’s 38%. Which is blindingly obvious really, as to win tournies you need to beat, at least, one of the top players.


Which is partly my point about being cautious about accusing things of being broken. In my experience the squat overlord list was average-good (and I like to think I’m a decent squat player). But in the right meta, with slightly different FAQs, and a top player it was really strong.

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Last edited by StevekCole on Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Best tournament list - Epic UK or NetEA
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:04 pm 
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Using rates to indentify strong/weak lists needs very up to date data. Both because the meta changes and the players get better (finds new ways to build strong lists), but not the least, since the list themselves changes/new lists are allowed. I suppose for example DKoK before/after single Warhounds would/will have a significant different winning rate. And the same will be with BL after flamer nerf.


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 Post subject: Re: Best tournament list - Epic UK or NetEA
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:58 pm 
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Elrik, has the flamer nerf also taken effect in netea?

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