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Thunderhawk Transporter ambiguity

 Post subject: Thunderhawk Transporter ambiguity
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:10 am 
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One issue that I and Argol have been discussing is the Thunderhawk Transport. The existing rules are ambiguous on a number of issues. Not sure how they are solved by E-UK?

1. Whether the Thunderhawk Transport can pick up troops that lack transports to carry them (the rules doesn't explicitly prohibit this).
2. Whether troops that want to be picked up need to have all their infantry already inside their transports when being picked up.

My answers for these questions are 1. No and 2. No, but it would be nice to clarify them properly. I could do it for Dark Angels, but since Scions of Iron also use them and they exist in E-UK as well it would be useful to have the same rules for everyone.


Another thing about the Thunderhawk Transports are the defensive AA. In the scions list they've got 30cm all round coverage. This seems excessive, but then again they only have 5++ save.

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Last edited by Mrdiealot on Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Transport ambiguity
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:22 am 
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About 1 the rules don´t prohibit it, and when they do they say as an Special Rule (Orks Fortress for example, but says nothing about Landas not being able to), so it would be a yes.

About 2 i would say yes again, but the guys left on ground would die for breaking the unit's coherence when the Thunderhawk leaves.
I remember a similar case on the forums about disembarking part of the formation to keep it safe in assaults (probably on the Leviathan) so it is OK. What the rules say, except in some cases where it talks about an exception is that they cannot be spread over several transports, but never says against tranporting half of the infantry, as that would kill most mechanized formations with losses amongst their transports.

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Last edited by Abetillo on Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Transport ambiguity
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:00 pm 
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Abetillo wrote:
About 1 the rules don´t prohibit it, and when they do they say as an Special Rule (Orks Fortress for example, but says nothing about Landas not being able to), so it would be a yes.


The exact quote from Thunderhawk Transport rules in Scions of Iron is "May transport two armoured vehicles (except Dreadnoughts) plus the units they can carry; Land Raiders count as two units each."

A problem with saying that they don't need transports to be carried is that it isn't specified how many infantry units they can carry, only the number of armoured vehicles. This gives it a variable transport capacity that depends on the type of formation it is carrying. I think the intention is that the infantry rides inside the armoured vehicles, not inside the thunderhawk transport itself.

This is also supported by the fluff. From Lexicanum: "The Thunderhawk Transporter is a logistical variation of the normal Thunderhawk gunship... The most noticeable difference is that it is missing the normal transport holds found on the Thunderhawk gunship, equipped instead with four massive magnetic clamping arms mounted on runners underneath the fuselage. These allow the Transporter to carry two Rhino or one Land Raider-sized vehicles, or an under-slung pod for carrying ammunition, fuel and other supplies.

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About 2 i would say yes again, but the guys left on ground would die for breaking the unit's coherence.
I remember a similar case on the forums about disembarking part of the formation to keep it safe in assaults (probably on the Leviathan) so it is OK. What the rules say, except in some cases where it talks about an exception is that they cannot be spread over several transports, but never says against tranporting half of the infantry, as that would kill most mechanized formations with losses amongst their transports.


The thing is that this mainly becomes an issue if the infantry cannot ride inside the Thunderhawk Transporter. If they can, then it isn't an issue. If they cannot ride inside the Transporter, then it becomes a pretty big issue and a big difference between it and the Landing Craft.

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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Transporter ambiguity
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:24 pm 
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Ok, then we are not talking about the general rules but about the specific transport capacity of the Thunderhawk Transporter, if they can use the room for vehicles for infantry as normal Thunderhawks or not.

Checking the line it is ambiguous indeed, i thought and read it severla times and i cannot get a sure answer, sorry. It is probably better if ask Kyussinchains or Argol to make the line more clear.

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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Transporter ambiguity
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:48 pm 
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Mrdiealot wrote:
1. Whether the Thunderhawk Transport can pick up troops that lack transports to carry them (the rules doesn't explicitly prohibit this).


1.7.5 disallows the russian doll, hence the weird wording. Given the Thawk Transport rules say "plus the units they can carry" you're pretty much allowed to carry 4 stands of infantry without jump pack or mounted, or a single stand of Terminators in the Scions list, even if you're not transporting the AVs.

That will change when someone adds a SM AV that can transport an entire chapter of Marines, at which point the Thawk can be used to deliver two of those AVs and two chapters of Marines. We can always change it to spell it out like the Landing Craft.

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2. Whether troops that want to be picked up need to have all their infantry already inside their transports when being picked up.


They don't, again no russian doll. You just need to have everything within 5cm of the THawk Transport when it lands.

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 Post subject: Re: Thunderhawk Transporter ambiguity
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:40 am 
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While I understand those arguments, I don't see any reason why we couldn't override the "no Russian Doll" rule.

Perhaps we should adopt E-UK:s wording for the Thunderhawk Transporters in their Black Templars list, which I find to be more clear about what the intention is:

"Transport (may carry up to two of the following: Hunters, Predators, Razorbacks, Rhinos and Vindicators. Or it may carry one Land Raider. In addition it may also carry any infantry transported in these vehicles). The entire Thunderhawk Transporter formation is counted as one War Engine for both the War Engine transport rule (e.g. one transported formation can be split between multiple aircraft within one Thunderhawk Transporter formation) and for the allocation of Hits."

It's not perfect, because there's still some ambiguity there. But I think it's definitely better.

Perhaps we should adopt the weaponry that they have as well (2 x Hvy Bolters on left / 2 x Hvy Bolters on Right. AP4+/AA5+, 15cm range)

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