Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu lists

 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:46 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid

Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:18 pm
Posts: 140
I corresponded with Tim earlier in the week, he promised that he would push for discussion at Briton this weekend.

I'm reticent to move things along until I'm confident either was if EUK are involved as to lists with the same name becoming increasingly divergent is not helpful.

The NDC proposals are different to the community changes being tested (and those also being tested by EUK). There is no indication the NDC has tested the proposed changes and no feedback has been provided on the community changes by the group.

The community changes (also being considered by EUK) are far more extensive than what was proposed or tested by NDC.

I am sure NDC has done useful work for other lists but at this late stage there's no way to dovetail it into what we are doing here. If the NDC could churn out some battle reports for the proposed changes and share them that would be most helpful as this has always been a challenge. With more reports we would probably have either excepted the changes by now or moved on, at which point a completely different, less extensive list of changes such as those presented by the NDC would come in to its own.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:06 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 8:07 pm
Posts: 417
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Now, this reply is a lot more helpful, and I fully accept that not all proposed changes would go through, but I would expect a discussion on their merits.

What is more, there's still the case that quite a few changes NDC proposed would imply convergence with E-UK. If something like that is already in the pipe, well that's great.

And I still think making fortifications interact better with War Engines is a common sense thing to do. There are now several War Engine lists working their way towards approval, and I think there's some fundamental issues with the way things work now that has to be adressed.

_________________
AC for Dark Angels (https://bit.ly/2HvM3EM) Traitor Titan Legion (https://bit.ly/2HvNgfi) Alpha Legion (https://bit.ly/2HNfk0I) Questoris Mechanicus (https://bit.ly/2KfqLg2) & Hive Fleet Dagon (https://bit.ly/2FirNoc).


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:32 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid

Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:35 am
Posts: 3148
Location: Norrköping, Sweden.
RugII wrote:
The NDC proposals are different to the community changes being tested (and those also being tested by EUK). There is no indication the NDC has tested the proposed changes and no feedback has been provided on the community changes by the group.


We actially tried several of the NDC suggestions AND provided battle reports for them with feedback on them.
There hasn't been an overwhelming amount of batreps for the "community changes" or feedback. Mostly discussions and theoryhammering. Not that theres anything wrong with that. It just seems like you're getting nowhere in a very long time.
And even if you don't agree with the shape or form of the NDC (because theres no way you haven't heard about the initiative considering how much discussion it sparked when presented on this forum and extensive advertisement we did for it on here and on the facebook groups) we still provided ideas AND tried them out in actual games so you could use that data.

But i guess now things are moving at a faster pace and I'm really looking forward to seeing the batreps and feedback for all the changes thats being produced so we the community can be in the loop of whats changing with the guard lists!

And since the NDC initiative produced an active group of Vassal players forming a slack group for getting more online games in, is there any specific changes you would like us to try out? Some of us can churn a few games pretty soon.

Lastly, critizism is not in it's nature a rude or abrassive thing. To ask people to "back off" when they're voicing their opinion is a very weird thing to do. We're not calling anyone names or being rude to them. We're saying we're worried/unhappy/conserned (take your pick) about how the Guard AC are handling the list development. Personally i think Rug needs to step up and do more work on this in a faster pace. Nobody is demanding change happening over a few days, but when more than a year passes without issues being adressed i think it's fair to ask for a change of pace and/or direction.

Now take a deep breath before you answer this post.

_________________
https://epic40ksweden.wordpress.com/

"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:57 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid

Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:18 pm
Posts: 140
This is what is with other people and I am waiting for a decision on. It's all been tested and discussed but with no great urgency by the community, Guard are considered pretty stable and there have been many many other exciting and more pressing projects over the years. I am not going to make changes based on the feedback or lobbying of a single player group, nor will I let them set the agenda, but battle reports are always welcome. Also consider the fact I do not know who is in the closed NDC group....

Project Parity

Proposed Changes to the NetEA & EUK Steel Legion for Parity

Rationale

The changes are all undeniably buffs, however overall they are conservative and have a negligible impact on the overall power of the list. Rather than to make the list more powerful the intent of the changes are to accommodate a greater variety units and builds into a competitive tournament list build in order to keep the list fresh, interesting, and most importantly enjoyable. As one of the original three lists the Steel Legion have been extensively tested over the years and are considered a benchmark, as such it did not seem appropriate at this time to implement any radical changes or make any additions to the list. With the EUK and NetEA lists being so similarity seems sensible to aim for parity for the best possible outcome for playtesting and the community.

Stats Change

For the Baneblade - Two shots for the Baneblade Cannon and removal ff on the Demolisher Cannon. Critical hit result changes to an additional point of damage.
These are buffs for a unit that lacks offensive power and close up survivability. Removal of the ff on the demolisher is a last minute addition, it makes little sense that the sponson mounted weapons have an unlimited arc but not the demolisher, additionally the mount is modelled in such a way to indicate it has a degree of movement unlike those of the Shadowsword and Cobra for example.
It is accepted that whilst these changes will see the Baneblade improved it remains a good all-rounder but slow with no niche in which it excels.

List Structure Change

Both lists to have their space craft in the 1/3 support section in line with EUK, this adds list flexibility and makes spacecraft more appealing.

Upgrade Changes

Upgrades would be heavily discounted, their points not reflecting the individual value of each unit but the value of the upgrade to the core formations in a 2500pts – 5000pts Steel Legion list. It was realised that to make upgrades desirable they not only needed to be cheaper but points needed to be freed up elsewhere in the list to accommodate them.

Fire Support 75pts
Ogryns change 25pts each along the same lines as Snipers
Infantry platoon 75pts
(Chimeras remain 25pts each)
Hellhounds 75pts
Tank Squadron 150pts
Storm Trooper Platoon may be upgraded to have four Imperial Guard Chimeras for 100 pts (as an alternative to Valkaries)

Formation Points Changes

These are small changes intended not to equate extra activations but to free up points for upgrades and to adjust internal list balance. It is intended that a typical 3000pts list will cost 50pts -100pts less after the changes, it is considered this is what is needed to accommodate one of the more sizeable upgrades.

Manticore Battery 250pts
Basilisk Battery 225pts
Bombard battery 200pts
Artillery Company 550pts
Mechanised HQ 450pts (this frees up 50pts for upgrades almost universally)
Lunar or Emperor 150pts (i.e both the same points!)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:56 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid

Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 6:42 am
Posts: 351
Location: Birchip, Australia
Apologies to ask but just for transparency where all the discussions are going on for all these proposals to test out?

Best i could find was 18 pages of Baneblade discussion and 1 post on artillery prices.

_________________
I have 4 laptops in this room and cannot play a pixel pushing tabletop simulator on any of them.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:15 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20802
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
I played a game vs Tim using your changes Rug.


Artillery Company - 550
Reg HQ w Flak - 500
Inf Co w Flak & Ogryn - 325

Storm Troopers with Chimeras - 300
Deathstrikes - 200
Baneblade - 200
Shadowsword - 200
Flak - 150
Flak - 150

Warhound - 275
Thunderbolts - 150


===

I had a win on points as I recall (it was a few weeks ago). First game I've ever won with an arty company.

_________________
6mm scale Scifi Plastic Sprues available here!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:28 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 7:27 pm
Posts: 5055
Location: Bristol
Good work Rug! :)

These look like a sensible list of changes and if they agree it would be great to have parity with the Epic-UK Steel Legion list rather than two parallel lists 95% the same. Better to leave variant IG lists seperate as there's much more variance between them.

Adding a clarification / note that WE can't barge units out of trenches/bunkers sounds a good suggestion by the NDC crowd though? It hadn't occured to me that was possible and it seems appropriate to modify the rules as written to prevent it.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:34 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid

Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:18 pm
Posts: 140
GlynG wrote:

Adding a clarification / note that WE can't barge units out of trenches/bunkers sounds a good suggestion by the NDC crowd though? It hadn't occured to me that was possible and it seems appropriate to modify the rules as written to prevent it.


That's gone to the ERC, Guard aren't the only faction to use fortifications so it's not my place to lead. Personally ive no view either way.... want to empty a trench? Stamping on it with a titan will do that! If a titan was kicking my pillbox I'd probably vacate too! On the flip side it is gamey and in the 41st Millennium fortifications are probably built to withstand ramming, kicking and stamping by WE!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:37 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid

Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:18 pm
Posts: 140
Norto wrote:
Apologies to ask but just for transparency where all the discussions are going on for all these proposals to test out?

Best i could find was 18 pages of Baneblade discussion and 1 post on artillery prices.


How many years have you gone back? This has been several years coming!

There'll be a lot to trawl through, I'll compile a list of threads to make it easier.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:41 am 
Hybrid
Hybrid

Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:18 pm
Posts: 140
Evil and Chaos wrote:
I played a game vs Tim using your changes Rug.


Artillery Company - 550
Reg HQ w Flak - 500
Inf Co w Flak & Ogryn - 325

Storm Troopers with Chimeras - 300
Deathstrikes - 200
Baneblade - 200
Shadowsword - 200
Flak - 150
Flak - 150

Warhound - 275
Thunderbolts - 150


===

I had a win on points as I recall (it was a few weeks ago). First game I've ever won with an arty company.


Looks as though you've managed to squeeze in an extra activation you wouldn't have had before so a win on points is promising! Thanks!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:59 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid

Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:18 pm
Posts: 140
RugII wrote:
Norto wrote:
Apologies to ask but just for transparency where all the discussions are going on for all these proposals to test out?

Best i could find was 18 pages of Baneblade discussion and 1 post on artillery prices.


How many years have you gone back? This has been several years coming!

There'll be a lot to trawl through, I'll compile a list of threads to make it easier.


Norto.... I have just realised why you might be having some difficulty..... I have been on Taccoms for about 13 years.... unfortunately in 2015 my "Rug" account was accidentally deleted along with all my posts, this is why a lot of threads appear a bit disjointed, some still show me as having started them or being the last person to post, and a few disappeared entirely. I could only observe for a long time (18 months?) while it was established the account couldnt be recovered and get me setup up again as RugII.

So there are about 5 years or so (?) of post by the Army Champion missing forever!

I'd really appreciate it if some of the forum veterans could verify this very convenient and incredible story!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:43 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:30 pm
Posts: 4033
Location: Greenville, SC
Quote:
I'd really appreciate it if some of the forum veterans could verify this very convenient and incredible sort!


Yes, Rug has been around since before me and was sub AC for Admech. I believe he's listed as the Backup list Developer on older versions of the AMTL list along with Ben.

_________________
-Vaaish


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:55 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20802
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
I'd confirm that, and also note that I was the one who proposed Rug for IG Champion when the post came up because I thought he was reliably level-headed, generally conservative in list management, but also with a creative streak on play styles that can help when looking to "break" a list.

_________________
6mm scale Scifi Plastic Sprues available here!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:48 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:01 pm
Posts: 1352
Also, to flag. The epic UK committee and a few other folk have had sight of these proposed changes for a wee while. I for one am fully supportive!

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Results from the NDC Step 3 vote regarding Imperial Gu l
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:38 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20802
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
RugII wrote:
Looks as though you've managed to squeeze in an extra activation you wouldn't have had before so a win on points is promising! Thanks!

Yep, I essentially got an extra Flak formation out of it, which I viewed as critical as the Artillery company needs all the flak it can have, to protect from air assaults / bomber attacks.

_________________
6mm scale Scifi Plastic Sprues available here!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net