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Alpha Legion v1.73 (Developmental)

 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.71 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:28 pm 
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Currently playing my first game with Alpha Legion against Argol's Scions of Iron in TTS. Nothing feels too broken so far, with the possible exception of the SHT formation which is admittedly extremely tough and hard to kill. Think they're OK tho.

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 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.71 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:02 pm 
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Some more reflections from my current game with Argol. This is the army I'm playing:
https://magnusdurr.github.io/snapfire/w ... 8~411~22x1 (for some reason the "I'm Alpharius" thing doesn't play nice with Army forge save function.)

The "Coils of the Hydra" rule (semi-ATSKNF) works pretty well, making even almost eradicated small units stick around. A pretty fair compensation for not having daemons on the marines IMO.

The cultist units are quite versatile, but without daemonic beasts and with just heavy stubbers they have plenty of dice but problems hitting much. Overall they feel pretty balanced. Quite pleased with the way the lesser daemons work, giving some nice decision making and flexibility. Having a dedicated unit for the Daemonic Icon gives enemies something to snipe, and makes the formations more interesting. The Rapiers are a nice addition to a unit of cultists. On on hand, it makes them a lot slower (unless transport is bought which makes the formation gigantic). On the other hand, 3 AT4+ at 45cm is nothing to sneeze at.

The Light Transports are great value, but with the nerfs I've given them (less speed and worse armament) I think they're OK. It's possible to create some Orc-sized formations with them however, just like in L&D.

The Mutants have yet to see battle, but it's a unit that hard to win against without some serious effort. Great for capturing objectives.

The Hydra formation is incredible value, but also incredibly fragile. I think it fits really well.

The Rough Riders are a lot more durable with Chaos Hounds and Daemons, and the removal of the daemonic beasts prevented them from becoming overpowered.

The destroyers got stomped pretty early on, and they're super fragile with their 30cm range. Think they work really well. The headhunters' Sabotage caused a failed activation in the first turn, and haven't done much after that. But they're definitely extremely capable.

The Lightning Interceptors feels OK. Not much in the way of shooting, but competent interceptors. Might be too good with 1+ Initiative at 150 points.

The "I'm Alpharius!" rule has been tested to the max, with Argol having taken out 2 out of 3 Lords. I think this rule works really well, giving a very solid reason for taking Lords.

Last but not least, the SHT. Took 2 Fellblades, but positioned them quite poorly. After comparing them to what Black Legion can take, I think they're fairly OK. While 4 DC and Coils of the Hydra makes them hard to beat, they're not fearless like titans or Black Legion WE. This of course means that it's very possible to break them and then engage again, destroying them. So while they're certainly really durable and destructive, they can't go around on their own but needs to be supported.

To sum up, the army plays pretty much as intended, and so far I don't see any need to change anything!

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 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.71 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:39 am 
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Hi Mrdiealot

I have recently had a 3000 point game using the Night Lords list against your Alpha Legion List. The game ended in a draw with the Alpha Legion achieving one victory condition to the Night Lords nil victory conditions and the was only a difference of about 150 victory points when they were tallied.

This was very much a game with lots of move and counter move. The Alpha Legion Marine formations for the most part went on the offense whilst the Cultist formations tended to be more defensive in what they did. The Fellblades performed well, holding their own against the Night Lords armour and the Reaver Titan.

Alpha Legion was a failed activation from winning the game 2-0. They were in position to have a stranglehold on two objectives including the blitz. The Headhunters failed to activate and got caught and wiped out by both the Raptor Packs.

Here are my initial impressions on the list.

The “I am Alpharius” rule is an excellent rule and ties in great with the Alpha Legion background. I also really like the “Coils of the Hydra” rule. There also appears to be many different ways of building the list.

The “Sabotage” rule also fits very well into the Alpha Legion theme. This could potentially tie in well with a turn 1 Terminator teleport or Thunderhawk assault (also at strategy rating 5). Most of the time this should counter the blast marker the assault formation often pick up on the way down.

The Predators and Destroyers for me felt a little overpowered. I would probably reduce the Autocannon by one attack, even with this it is in my mind still a better predator than the standard Chaos Predator. I also think that Alpha Legion Marine formations should have access to the Hunter instead of the Hydra.

I have mixed feelings on the Super Heavy Tanks but at the same time I understand this choice probably in the list for sake of balance as there are no Titans in the list. Also taking this choice in an army list is at the expense of other options so taking them will limit other support choices.

Two questions in the game came up, which I would like your interpretation on.
1. Do you need to kill every Alpha Legion Lord to get the 75 victory points for the “I am Alpharius” rule.
2. With buying Daemons in the list is it 15 points per lesser Daemon or 15 points per summoning point (meaning effectively 30 points for a lesser Daemons).

In summary I believe this is a good start to the army list and does have an Alpha Legion feel about which is important. I think with further playtesting and feedback the Alpha Legion in time can certainly progress as a list.

Hope this feedback helps.


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 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.71 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:01 pm 
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Glad you liked the list. Always a good sign when there are tight games imo. Happy to hear you like the special rules. Along with strat 5, I think they really give the list that Alpha Legion vibe.

Given that you've been playing the Predators with 2 shots on the autocannon (I nerfed it to 1 shot a while ago), I guess you've been playing with a slightly older version of the list?

Since they got nerfed to 30cm, the Destroyers now need to get in pretty close to deliver, and they're quite fragile and not super cheap. But it might be that they still need some attention, I'll have to think about it. The Australians play them with 15cm range, which might be an idea. Alternatively give them AP5+ and -25pts cost.

The Predators being slightly better than Black Legion is by design, as I think the Black Legion Predators are a pretty poor choice overall.

One reason I've not included the Hunter is that it's not a Horus Heresy era unit as far as I can tell, so it would go against the theme of Alpha Legion still fighting with their original gear. Another is that the Hydra fits so well with Alpha Legion iconography, and also happen to be a really excellent AA unit. A third reason is that the list has quite a few unit types already. But I've been back and forth about this, and perhaps the Alpha Legion Marine formations need some form of integrated AA. In the Heresy lists, the unit they have is a Whirlwind with Hyperios missiles which might work. But then the list has no other Whirlwinds so...

I've been a bit uncertain about the SHT as well, but I think they give the list something it would otherwise lack. An alternative would be to put more emphasis on the mobility of the Alpha Legion and remove both the SHT and the Macharius. But I think the list would then lose some of the Horus Heresy Legion feel, and would feel less "Epic". And with the SHT being minimum 2 in size (which makes them a lot more unwieldy to use in my experience), I don't think they're in any way an automatic choice in the list.

As for the questions: should probably update the list with the answers to them.
1. Haven't thought about that actually, but I think your suggestion sounds the most appropriate: Kill all models that counts for the "I'm Alpharius!" rule to get the points (Lords and Land Raider Proteus).
2. It's 15 points per lesser daemon point, not the summoning points on the 2d3. So summoning a plaguebearer costs 2 *summoning points* each, but only 1 lesser daemon point. It's more obvious when lists also have greater daemons, since these cost 8 summoning points, but only 1 greater daemon point.

Thanks for the feedback!

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 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.72 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:38 am 
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Post updated. Also changed the list status to developmental now that we've had games played with the list outside of my gaming group! Keep the reports coming, and we might get this thing approved some day ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.72 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:23 pm 
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Thanks for the swift reply and the rules clarifications.

Yes the list we used was from early June, which still had the Predators with the x2 shot autocannon. My preference for the Destroyers would be the 15cm range as this unit for me has always been about insane devastation at close range.

The question of AA choices has valid cases for either the Hydra or the Hunter. Given background wise that in many cases Alpha Legion warbands exist outside the Eye of Terror often within the boundaries of what would be considered Imperial sectors it would not be seen as too much of a stretch to imagine them obtaining (maybe even in plain sight) Hunters using a plethora of deceptions to achieve this.

I also agree that SHT do not entirely fit into the Alpha Legion theme, but at the same time you probably still need that option in the army list for sake of balance in a similiar way to what Titans do in many of the other Space Marine/Chaos Marine lists. Having played a number of Tournaments using Marine Lists without employing any Titan options, I have always found they have had a tough time of it against armies with lots of War Engines. So I on the whole I think it is for the best that the SHT option is still there.

We will use the updated list for a future game at some stage, and hopefully other people have a game with the list and provide feedback from a different angle. Keep up the good work.


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 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.72 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:48 pm 
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15cm on the Rad Missile Launchers feels a tad short, that's the same range as a Heavy Flamer after all. I'm going to try them out like this and we'll see how it feels.

About the Hunter, I think I'll stick to just the Hydra. With it, they already have *way* better access to competent AA than Black Legion for example, not to mention the useless Stalker that Emperor's Children has got. And it contributes to the theme, as it seems like the Legions during Horus Heresy didn't have much in the way of proper AA. In addition, the Lightnings are pretty good as well with their 1+ initiative.

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 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.73 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:03 pm 
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Post updated

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 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.73 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:38 am 
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Few Questions about listmaking as a new player:

Does the Chaos Hounds upgrade provide 3 Individual Hounds or 3 bases of 5 Hounds?

Can upgrades be taken multiple times: For instance, can 1 Cultist Coven take Hydra multiple times.

When it says Cultist Coven: 12 Cult Units, 1 Daemonic Icon Character. Is the character an individual on one of those stands or is it a character stand of the Icon Character and 4 other dudes?

What does having Chaos Hounds as the vehicles do? Provide screening?

If I want Daemons besides the minor ones it is going to cost 30pts per unit? (15pts/summoning point?) Plus the Pool Cost so 45 pts per unit to summon?

Do I need to take Aspiring Champion and then Daemon Prince to add a DP to Cultist Coven. Or can i just do the DP upgrade?


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 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.73 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:46 am 
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Quote:
Does the Chaos Hounds upgrade provide 3 Individual Hounds or 3 bases of 5 Hounds?


The Chaos Hounds upgrade consists of 3 bases of hounds. Exactly how many hounds you have on the base is depends on what type of model you have and what you're preference is. It doesn't affect the stats of the model.

Quote:
Can upgrades be taken multiple times: For instance, can 1 Cultist Coven take Hydra multiple times.


Only if the upgrade specifically allows for this. If nothing is said, it's one time only. Had it been "0-2 Hydras" you could have bought up to two. Had it been "any number of Hydras" you could have taken as many as you like. This last version of upgrade is quite uncommon, they're usually capped in one way or another.

Quote:
When it says Cultist Coven: 12 Cult Units, 1 Daemonic Icon Character. Is the character an individual on one of those stands or is it a character stand of the Icon Character and 4 other dudes?


The character is an upgrade that you add to any unit in the formation, and isn't a unit of its own. It adds the abilities and weapons that it has to that unit. So in the case of the Cultists, you add the Daemonic Icon Character to a unit of cultists. When that unit dies, so does the Daemonic Icon.

Quote:
What does having Chaos Hounds as the vehicles do? Provide screening?


When added to a formation with Light Vehicles they do provide some screening. In the case of the Hydras they make the formation harder to break (they're now 6 instead of just 3) and harder to engage.

Quote:
If I want Daemons besides the minor ones it is going to cost 30pts per unit? (15pts/summoning point?) Plus the Pool Cost so 45 pts per unit to summon?


No, you got to separate the lesser daemon points (that cost points when you build the army) from the summoning points (that you get from rolling dice right before you roll to activate a formation with daemonic pact). The Lesser Daemon pool itself costs nothing, and each lesser daemon point costs 15 points. The specific Lesser Daemons then costs different amounts of summoning points to summon, which is done with 2D3 right before you roll to activate a formation.

Quote:
Do I need to take Aspiring Champion and then Daemon Prince to add a DP to Cultist Coven. Or can i just do the DP upgrade?
You got to upgrade to the Aspiring Champion first, then replace it with the Daemon Prince. In effect you just add the two costs together. Maybe a bit of a strange way to do it, but it's a pretty standard procedure in Epic EA.

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 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.73 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:12 am 
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As a more general comment, I really recommend getting familiar with the Army Forge link that's at the bottom of the first post in this thread. I do that for all the lists I'm AC for, a great aid for understanding the lists.

All approved lists can be found here: https://traitor-legion.appspot.com/ I've kept Alpha Legion off it for the time being as it's easier to maintain when it's only here.

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 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.73 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:54 pm 
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Mrdiealot wrote:


The character is an upgrade that you add to any unit in the formation, and isn't a unit of its own. It adds the abilities and weapons that it has to that unit. So in the case of the Cultists, you add the Daemonic Icon Character to a unit of cultists. When that unit dies, so does the Daemonic Icon.


Gotcha. What about in the case of the Demon Prince with Wings. Does he get his own base as he would be faster than the cultist units?


Quote:
No, you got to separate the lesser daemon points (that cost points when you build the army) from the summoning points (that you get from rolling dice right before you roll to activate a formation with daemonic pact). The Lesser Daemon pool itself costs nothing, and each lesser daemon point costs 15 points. The specific Lesser Daemons then costs different amounts of summoning points to summon, which is done with 2D3 right before you roll to activate a formation.


I'm still a little confused on this. So :
1. I add a Daemon Pool to my list for 0 pts.
2. I buy Lesser Daemon Points which are a token that represent 1 Lesser Daemon Unit
3. On my turn, I declare summoning and roll 2D3.
4. Pool Cost is 1, the remaining points can be used to buy the Minor Daemons for 1pt or the others for 2pts. But I can't get more than the tokens in my pool.

Does that look right


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 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.73 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:09 pm 
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Quote:
Gotcha. What about in the case of the Demon Prince with Wings. Does he get his own base as he would be faster than the cultist units?


Yes. If you look at the upgrades, first you replace the Cultist Inf unit with an Aspiring Champion inf unit, and then you replace the Aspiring Champion Inf unit with a Daemon Prince inf unit. These three types of units all have different stats. You don't add the Aspiring Champion or the Daemon Prince to a unit of cultists, these are separate units that replace the cultist unit entirely.

Each of these also has the character upgrade Daemonic Icon (which is of the Character unit type, meaning that it has to be attached to a non-character unit), which gives the entire formation certain abilities as long as the unit carrying the Daemonic Icon (which can be a unit of cultists, an Aspiring Champion unit or a Daemon Prince unit) is alive.

Quote:
No, you got to separate the lesser daemon points (that cost points when you build the army) from the summoning points (that you get from rolling dice right before you roll to activate a formation with daemonic pact). The Lesser Daemon pool itself costs nothing, and each lesser daemon point costs 15 points. The specific Lesser Daemons then costs different amounts of summoning points to summon, which is done with 2D3 right before you roll to activate a formation.


Quote:
I'm still a little confused on this. So :
1. I add a Daemon Pool to my list for 0 pts.
2. I buy Lesser Daemon Points which are a token that represent 1 Lesser Daemon Unit
3. On my turn, I declare summoning and roll 2D3.
4. Pool Cost is 1, the remaining points can be used to buy the Minor Daemons for 1pt or the others for 2pts. But I can't get more than the tokens in my pool.

Does that look right


Almost correct. The Daemon Points and the Summoning Points are separate. The Daemon Pool cost of the Lesser Daemons is always 1, but the Summoning Point cost that you get from rolling the 2d3 varies between 1 or 2 depending on the daemon. So summoning 2 Plaguebearers and 1 Minor Daemon costs 3 Daemon Pool points (3 Lesser Daemons) but 5 Summoning Points (2 for each Plaguebearer, 1 for the minor Daemon).

Also remember that you 1. First declare what the formation that wishes to summon daemons intends to do 2. Roll 2d3 to determine the number of summoning points you get 3. Place out the Lesser Daemons within 5cm from non-daemon units in the formation 4. Roll to determine if the action succeeded.

It's a bit unwieldy, but you get used to it after a while.

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 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.73 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:15 pm 
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Thank you so much! I can't wait to get an Alpha Legion 6mm painted up. I have a great technique for the 28mm with tamiya clear that I am interested to simplify for these.

One last quick question for now. I skimmed the rules and didn't see it.

Mixed movement values in formations, like with the DP w/ wings in a Cultist formation. How do you take advantage of the increased movement without breaking formation?

Or Cultists with some Rapiers which are 5cm slower. Does the whole formation have to move slower?


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 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.73 (Developmental)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:25 pm 
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themummra wrote:
Mixed movement values in formations, like with the DP w/ wings in a Cultist formation. How do you take advantage of the increased movement without breaking formation?

Or Cultists with some Rapiers which are 5cm slower. Does the whole formation have to move slower?


Each type of unit moves at its own rate, but since units in a formation has to stay within 5cm of each other (unless they have the Scout special rule, like the Headhunters have) formations generally tend to be limited by the slowest unit in the formation. Having better movement value (like putting Wings on a Daemon Prince in a formation of Cultists on foot) can be useful anyway, as it will give you 30cm movement when doing an Engage move, so that you can get into base to base with the enemy.

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