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Alpha Legion v1.73 (Developmental)

 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.5 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 10:26 am 
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I am not sure that your suggested list is legal under the terms of unlocking support formations. Can 3 support formations be unlocked with only the 2 marine formations? Same with the Cultists and the formations they are unlocking.


Yeah, it is legal. The Cultists unlock 6 formations (2 in the Cultist section, 2 in the Elite section and 2 Support) while the Alpha Legion Marines unlock 2 in the Support section.

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What would you use for a fire raptor model?


Not sure at this point, but Vanguard has some pretty good proxies.

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When i was looking at the list and what it had to offer my worry was it going against the other 2 lists I was considering and will probably also eventually collect. That would be Minervan Imperial Guard and Orks with a Great Gargant. Does your suggested list have the ability to face off against Warlord sized formations even in small quantities? Or is it a combination of hard hitting marines and quantity of squishy infantry at the expense of a lot of those Big AT weapons?


In Epic Armageddon, huge formations are not necessarily that useful since the main scenario played is about taking objectives. Having more activations than your opponent is really good too for a bunch of reasons. Very few lists can reliably take down a Great Gargant or Warlord, so often the opponent can just ignore the big titan and go after everything else in the list instead.

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Without experience playing games at this scale and the lack of good youtube games my knowledge is very theoretical. Heavily objective based game so high mobility is paramount but also with a combination of AT in quantity for vehicle popping and Heavy AT for large targets but not at the expense of AP for the large infantry formations. The terminators are going to be a must I think and your slant toward air assets is also a fun twist.


Yeah, it's got a bit of everything. It is just a suggestion tho. I strongly suggest you get some trial games with some borrowed list if possible (or on Tabletop Simulator or Vassal if you have got an opponent that's willing to do that). That will make it easier for you to understand the dynamic of the game, which is really different from e.g. 40k.

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 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.52 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 11:20 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.6 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 12:36 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.6 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 11:19 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.62 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 2:27 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.62 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 2:54 am 
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Really like the feel of this latest version! Especially pleased that you can now play a more or less chaotic Alpha Legion depending on what you feel like is the "proper" way of representing them.

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 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.63 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 11:59 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.63 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:14 am 
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I like where this is going, wish I had more time to actually play with it :)

Mrdiealot wrote:
Curious what others think about the special rules issue. There are more than most armies, I agree, but I also think the Alpha Legion needs more than average to get the feeling right, since the kind of Alpha Legion I want to capture here lies precisely in between traitor and loyalist.


"Teleport Homer" and "Martial Hubris" seem unnecessary? The condition to trigger Teleport Homer would not apply in most usages of terminators (they typically aim for backfield support formations, far from the main front), and Martial Hubris requires the player to remember a special rule that occasionally does something bad - it is better design to have special rules that does something beneficial for the player, it is somehow far easier to remember.

"I'm Alpharius!" - rewrite the rule to reflect that it is now an upgrade. Maybe, from a list structural standpoint, include it like the Eldar lists include their webway portal? It would make the Army Builder list neater too, letting the special rule sit away from each individual formation. It could also be added as a zero-point upgrade that requires the "webway" item, then the user could add it to the formations that has Lords or Proteus tanks.

Why is the Daemon Prince automatically the SupCom? I rather liked the way the Daemon Prince was definitely not the leader of this gang.

The Legion Marines seem very powerful for the price - strat 5, init 1+, 8 stands strong with pseudo ATSKNF and leader and transports? At 325 points, I think 6 stands is quite appropriate. I appreciate you're going for a Heresy-era formation, but surely XX legion in particular would be using smaller units (and expending allied cultists instead)?

The Super Heavy Tank Company seems a little excessive - isn't there a better chance of seeing these iconic tanks if they were available in single-unit platoons, at (eg) 300 pts? Super heavy tank companies also seems more appropriate for large-scale pitched battles, which the XX legions famously avoids if possible. It would also allow you to lose the slightly clunky "max 33%" qualifier on the Alpha Legion Support section.

Keep up the good work!


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 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.63 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 12:08 pm 
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Quote:
"Teleport Homer" and "Martial Hubris" seem unnecessary? The condition to trigger Teleport Homer would not apply in most usages of terminators (they typically aim for backfield support formations, far from the main front), and Martial Hubris requires the player to remember a special rule that occasionally does something bad - it is better design to have special rules that does something beneficial for the player, it is somehow far easier to remember.


More inclined to remove the Martial Hubris rule than the Teleport Homer, but I agree that neither are critical to the list.

Quote:
"I'm Alpharius!" - rewrite the rule to reflect that it is now an upgrade. Maybe, from a list structural standpoint, include it like the Eldar lists include their webway portal? It would make the Army Builder list neater too, letting the special rule sit away from each individual formation. It could also be added as a zero-point upgrade that requires the "webway" item, then the user could add it to the formations that has Lords or Proteus tanks.


Yeah, that might be a good solution. The only issue is that keeping it as an upgrade has at least one advantage: It lets you make a BTS at the same time. But having it away might be neater.

Quote:
Why is the Daemon Prince automatically the SupCom? I rather liked the way the Daemon Prince was definitely not the leader of this gang.


I was reading the Alpha Legion fluff, and one thing that struck me was how common the Alpha Legion Daemon Prince was. Seems almost like a traditional 40k villain at this point. So I figured that if he's in the army, he's the leader. Lets you choose whether you want to have a more chaotic feel to the army, or be more quasi-loyalist.

Quote:
The Legion Marines seem very powerful for the price - strat 5, init 1+, 8 stands strong with pseudo ATSKNF and leader and transports? At 325 points, I think 6 stands is quite appropriate. I appreciate you're going for a Heresy-era formation, but surely XX legion in particular would be using smaller units (and expending allied cultists instead)?


Well, a unit of normal Space Marine Tacticals cost 275, and a lot of people think they're not worth it even then. I used to think that 6 was the best size, but after lobbying from a friend of mine I'd like to try them at 8. They don't give access to most of the rest of the list either, so I generally find that I can't spam them.

Quote:
The Super Heavy Tank Company seems a little excessive - isn't there a better chance of seeing these iconic tanks if they were available in single-unit platoons, at (eg) 300 pts?


You're perfectly right it's an excessive unit, that's the intention. I'm not such a huge fan of having single Shadowswords scooting around (or single Warhounds), and I wanted to give the list a real hammer that involves making some hard decisions in the list. It's supposed to be a rare unit, and having 1 or 2 in every list wouldn't feel so rare. A compromise might be to start out at 2 like before, with an option to go to 3. Would have the additional benefit of making the Falchion more useful, as having 3 is kind of useless.

Quote:
It would also allow you to lose the slightly clunky "max 33%" qualifier on the Alpha Legion Support section.


Yeah, there is some redundancy there, not optimal, but I think I'll keep it in for the time being.

Quote:
Super heavy tank companies also seems more appropriate for large-scale pitched battles, which the XX legions famously avoids if possible.


Which is true, except we're playing Epic which is all about the larger scale. Alpha Legion isn't really supposed to do these kind of things, yet here we are ;-) I've also had an eye towards how the list plays at 4000 points, where it becomes a lot more affordable.

Quote:
Keep up the good work!


Thanks! Glad to see people are engaged with the list. It's been a lot of fun to make.

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 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.65 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 12:52 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.65 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:39 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.65 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:26 am 
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A couple of nits, questions & suggestion:

"Alpha Legion Elite
(Max 1 for each Chaos Cultist formation)"
Should be
Alpha Legion Elite
(Max 1 for each Alpha Legion Marine formation)
right?

Typo in rule "If the "I'm Alpharius!" he Alpha Legion ..."?

Is it intentional that Daemonic Beasts costs 2 summoning points?

Does the Alpha Legion get a free summoning point for each unit with Daemonic Focus (like the Black Legion)?

The Flamer stats doesn't match the BL flamer stat. Suggest aligning with the BL Flamer, or (my preference) replacing it with the Daemon World Horror stat (4+/4+/3+).

Suggest replacing the Hydra upgrade with a Hunter (or Stalker, or Whirlwind Hyperios) upgrade for the Alpha Legion, keeping the Hydra for the Cultists.

Is there some backstory for the list that explains why the cultists have Machariuses instead of Leman Russes?

Have you considered allowing Thudd guns (eg, 3 for 50) as an upgrade to the Cultist formation? They would make a good forward garrison, then.


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 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.65 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:09 pm 
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Quote:
"Alpha Legion Elite
(Max 1 for each Chaos Cultist formation)"
Should be
Alpha Legion Elite
(Max 1 for each Alpha Legion Marine formation)
right?

No, it's cultists only. I agree it's a bit odd on first sight, but the reasoning is that since cultists are the main force in the Alpha Legion, the structure is basically a prohibition against playing without them (unless you want to make a list of only Alpha Legion Marines...!).

Additional benefits: it makes the list a whole lot easier to playtest, and creates a loud and clear contrast with other lists.

Quote:
Is it intentional that Daemonic Beasts costs 2 summoning points?

Yes. They're probably the most versatile daemon of them all, especially in conjunction with all the static bonuses you can get from the cultist formations. There is an issue that since all daemons cost 2 to summon, you can't spend odd numbers of summoning points rolled. But right now I think that's less of a bug and more of a feature.

Quote:
Does the Alpha Legion get a free summoning point for each unit with Daemonic Focus (like the Black Legion)?

You mean daemonic pact (focus lets you keep them between turns). No, there are no daemons included as it is right now. I should probably spell that out. I reason that since they get the pact for free (+ inspiring and focus), they might as well buy the daemons they need.

Quote:
The Flamer stats doesn't match the BL flamer stat. Suggest aligning with the BL Flamer, or (my preference) replacing it with the Daemon World Horror stat (4+/4+/3+).

The list simply reflects the upcoming changes to the Flamer stats. It's pretty much decided at this point, so I figured I would have it in the list right away. Also note that the daemonic beasts have 5+ armour, and the daemonettes 20cm move, which are very likely the stats that they're going to have when Black Legion updates. The predator autocannon is the same, if that change survives into vanilla space marines.

To be honest, why it was decided to have the flamer instead of the Horror as the main lesser daemon for Tzeentch is a complete mystery to me, but since it's been that way for a decade now (and quite a few people have the models for them) I figure it's set in stone.

Quote:
Suggest replacing the Hydra upgrade with a Hunter (or Stalker, or Whirlwind Hyperios) upgrade for the Alpha Legion, keeping the Hydra for the Cultists.

I have been thinking a lot about that, and right now I'm leaning towards having the Hydra as the only ground AA model for the army. Two reasons: Plenty of units in the army already, and since it's the Hydra, I reason that just got to be the Alpha Legion's favourite unit. But it does create some odd effects that I don't like, and I probably should restrict them to be cultists only, with nothing for the marine units.

Quote:
Is there some backstory for the list that explains why the cultists have Machariuses instead of Leman Russes?

Because I figure that the Machariuses are even more low-tech than Leman Russes, and the list already has several main battle tanks (Predators, Vindicators, Land Raiders). But perhaps the traitor Leman Russ is too iconic to leave out.

Quote:
Have you considered allowing Thudd guns (eg, 3 for 50) as an upgrade to the Cultist formation? They would make a good forward garrison, then.

I definitely have. That's how it is in the Knight World list. Several reasons: because it's a bit too useful and would make the dedicated light artillery unit completely redundant; the chaos cultists should be a kind of aggressive formation; there would be no reason to take rapiers, which is a unit I kind of like.

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 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.7 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:02 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Alpha Legion v1.71 (Experimental)
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:00 pm 
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