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Vior'la revisited 1.2

 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 11:07 pm 
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Here is the offending Vior'la Order of Battle for 4000 point game mentioned above by markconz.

First Heavy BattleSuit Wing, with attached Pathfinder Support
2 XV109 Y'vahra, XV104 Riptide, Shas'el [300]
3 XV109 Y'vahra, Shas'el [275]
3 XV109 Y'vahra, Shas'el [275]
4 Pathfinders, 2 Devilfish [175]
4 Pathfinders, 2 Devilfish [175]

Second Heavy BattleSuit Wing, with attached Pathfinder Support
2 XV109 Y'vahra, XV104 Riptide, Shas'el [300]
3 XV109 Y'vahra, Shas'el [275]
3 XV109 Y'vahra, Shas'el [275]
4 Pathfinders, 2 Devilfish [175]
4 Pathfinders, 2 Devilfish [175]

Support Heavy BattleSuit Wing, with attached Pathfinder Support
4 XV107 R'varna, Shas'el, Skyray [550]
2 XV107 R'varna, Shas'el, XV109 Y'vahra, Skyray [425]
3 XV109 Y'vahra, Shas'el [275]
4 Pathfinders, 2 Devilfish [175]
4 Pathfinders, 2 Devilfish [175]

My initial aim was to get every Heavy Battle Suit model I have painted onto the table using the new (Borka) NetEA Vior'la List. The force is rather light with AA cover and this did not come back to haunt me because the Chaos Air Support thought it was a cunning Tau trap and threw 1s for activation, including after having the Supreme Commander on table telling them it was not [triple 1s]. Also no Shas'o (not available in those formations) but with near pop-corm Initiative 1+ formations that is not much of a worry.

You can see I have maxed out the cheapest Heavy Battle Suits (almost maxed out - that was all I had of one type) and heavily supported them with the discounted Pathfinder Groups. If I'd had one more XV109 the force would have dropped one Pathfinder formation, traded an XV107 for the cheaper XV109 and added two more skyrays to the heavy suits. Anyway that is fiddling. On to the basic issues.

I like the Pathfinder Groups compared to the Tetra based Recon Groups. Four potent infantry scouts typically set up in covered shooting positions on overwatch with marker-lights (expect 2 Sniper hits and 2 Disrupt hits on any infantry/LV formation attacking them). The Devilfish deployed in some hidden position behind still have Line of Fire (due to their Guided Missiles) so they can soak BM suppression and/or provide some AT fire. In comparison the Tetra/Piranha are all light vehicles (so find getting in cover more challenging, have mobility issues if they do and are vulnerable to both AP and AT fire), and have next to no firepower/FF. They do have more mobility so ARE BETTER at securing crossfires and are usually better placed for projecting marker-lights further forward. At 200 pts vs 175 pts I tend to take a mix optimised for static and mobile roles. At 175 pts vs 175 pts I'll take the Pathfinders every time - bit weird how strongly that is with me given only a 25 point shift but I think it is highly coloured by maintaining activation count. Did think about mixing some Tetras into 2 or 3 of the above Pathfinder Groups, as a trial, but didn't in the end.

In our games stretching a markerlight unit to within 30 cm of an enemy formation frequently triggers an assault activation in response and the formation often get wiped out on combat resolution. Somehow the Recon Groups seem to suffer this more frequently!? Probably the way I handle them more aggressively but also the in-ability to place them in cover (dangerous terrain tests and not into building/etc) combined with the weaker FF factors.

The XV109 Y'vahra is potent at 75 points. 3 Suits [225], Shas'el [25], activation [25] = 275 points for the formation, upgrades [75 ea]. The net effect of the Tau Jump Packs is somewhat dependant on terrain size and conventions but as an experience for the opposing player it is additionally demoralising. The Tau formation rushes forward, more-or-less obliterates one of your formations with firepower, then jumps back to safety (at least somewhat out of sight/line-of-fire). The initiative 1+ formation can also provide coordinated fire to place markerlights and crossfire opportunities. All very Tau special-rule demoralising/overwhelming. Cap that with a review of the prospects of engaging the 3 Y'vahra in a retaliatory assault (6 FF4+, 3 FF4 IC, Armour 3+/5+ inv) and the "those are seriously overpowered" mantle is confirmed. It would doubtless trigger our Australian Brethren's DBAD (Don't be a Dick) rule.

This post has got rather long. Mark did a comparison of the Y'vahra with an Imperial Knight above. I'd like to point out an internal comparison with a Broadside Group [300 pts] and the slightly buffed Crisis Group [325 pts]. But will do that in a future post.

Given the Heavy Battle Suit and Pathfinder Groups are both in the core section you almost don't need to take anything else. So in terms of stress testing the list you need some games with just those (by themselves separately or in combination). So assuming just putting the Y'vahra back up to 350 points for the three (like the other suits) brings it back somewhat in line how does this Army List look at 3000 points? Skyray at +75 pts.

4 XV107 R'varna, Shas'el, Skyray [525]
3 XV104 Riptide, Shas'el, Skyray [425]
3 XV104 Riptide, Shas'el, Skyray [425]
3 XV104 Riptide, Shas'el, Skyray [425]
3 XV109 Y'vahra, Shas'el, Skyray [425]
3 XV109 Y'vahra, Shas'el, Skyray [425]
3 XV109 Y'vahra, Shas'el [350]

If you don't like the low activation count:

4 XV107 R'varna, Shas'el, Skyray [525]
3 XV104 Riptide, Shas'el, Skyray [425]
3 XV104 Riptide, Shas'el, Skyray [425]
3 XV109 Y'vahra, Shas'el [350]
3 XV109 Y'vahra, Shas'el [350]
4 Pathfinders, 2 Devilfish, 2 Gun Drones [200]
4 Pathfinders, 2 Devilfish, 2 Gun Drones [200]
4 Pathfinders, 2 Devilfish [175]
4 Pathfinders, 2 Devilfish [175]
4 Pathfinders, 2 Devilfish [175]


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:56 pm 
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Sorry for the slow answer. All available hobby time last two weeks have been going to preparing for a campaign day I'm hosting.

Yeah that list is a real stress test of the Y'vahra. With Vior'la I'd still like FW to be mainstay. I thought that the prerequisite to have FW for support choices would be enoguh. The above kind of list is not what I have intended and doesn't seem lika a lot of fun to meet. Do you guys think it should be allowed?

I see a few simple amendment. One is to move pathfinders to support like the UK list.
Another is to limit heavy suits and PFs to 0-2 (or something) per FW formation.
Increased price for the Y'vahra, but that still makes the above kind of list possible.
Other suggestions? preference?


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:34 pm 
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It could be worth shifting heavy suits into an "Elite" category that is 1:1 to core formations. If you really wanted to restrict the list design, maybe move PFs into it as well and make it a 1:2 ratio to core.

I'm note sure this would work if PF are left core though, as you could still end up with a build of just heavy suits and PFs.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:41 pm 
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Or drop the skyrays from the heavy suits, if you do that it severely weakens a suit-spam list against air assault...

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:56 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
Or drop the skyrays from the heavy suits, if you do that it severely weakens a suit-spam list against air assault...
I agree with Kyuss on this. Sticking Skyrays into heavy suit formations provides strong, mobile, "mini castles" that I think most armies will have trouble dealing with, especially in bulk. Restructuring how the list builds aside, I think this should be a top priority.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:33 am 
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Question Orca Capacity- how many space takes up brodside suits? the list only states crisis suits so i assume it is same

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:33 am 
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Haydencz wrote:
Question Orca Capacity- how many space takes up brodside suits? the list only states crisis suits so i assume it is same
Crisis Suit unit takes 2 transport slots [infantry unit assumes 3 suits]
Broadside Suit ("unit") requires only one slot [Light Vehicle assumes only one actual suit]
Quote:
DESIGN NOTES
Basing Tau Units: Although infantry, Crisis Battlesuits and Krootox should be mounted 2-4 to a base. Fire Warriors, Pathfinders, Stealth, Gun Drones, Kroot, Kroot Hounds, Kroot Master Shapers are based as regular infantry. All other units are based individually. Feel free to add a Drone to infantry and Battlesuit stands, as well as light vehicle bases and armoured vehicles, if you wish. The Broadside unit assumes a single battlesuit accompanied by controlled shield drones.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:55 am 
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gunslinger007 wrote:
kyussinchains wrote:
Or drop the skyrays from the heavy suits, if you do that it severely weakens a suit-spam list against air assault...
I agree with Kyuss on this. Sticking Skyrays into heavy suit formations provides strong, mobile, "mini castles" that I think most armies will have trouble dealing with, especially in bulk. Restructuring how the list builds aside, I think this should be a top priority.

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Yeah I too think this is a good idea. Will remove the skyray option in the next update.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:10 am 
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Borka wrote:
gunslinger007 wrote:
kyussinchains wrote:
Or drop the skyrays from the heavy suits, if you do that it severely weakens a suit-spam list against air assault...
I agree with Kyuss on this. Sticking Skyrays into heavy suit formations provides strong, mobile, "mini castles" that I think most armies will have trouble dealing with, especially in bulk. Restructuring how the list builds aside, I think this should be a top priority.

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Yeah I too think this is a good idea. Will remove the skyray option in the next update.


The suits are WE correct. Wouldn't they block LOS for the skyray? no marker light unless it was up front with it's dick in the wind? no 360!

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:49 am 
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m_folais wrote:
The suits are WE correct. Wouldn't they block LOS for the skyray? no marker light unless it was up front with it's dick in the wind? no 360!
War Engines with Tau Jump Packs. So they advance/double shoot with markerlights (Skyray at 30 cm) then Suits jump pack 10 cm to ring the skyray in RA4+. But note it can still shoot AA since that does not get blocked. But it can be sniped since aircraft AT can specify shooting at AV not WE.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:08 am 
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Yeah what Andrew points out is a valid tactic and It’s a skimmer so can pop up and see over the suits in any case.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:55 pm 
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I played this list monday.
I must say I am more than a little underwhelmed by the Heay suits. A Riptide i basically just a bigger crisis suit that is 5cm faster, has Slightly better weapons, a deflector shield instead of invulnerable, and DC2.
While costing twice as much per.

I feel they should be more expensive and a Lot more capable.

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