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Vior'la revisited 1.2

 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 12:10 pm 
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Thanks that's some good points.
Andrew_NZ wrote:
The reduced movement on the Ghostkeels mean you need to place closer for the formation to be effective compared to the Stealth Suits.

Sorry that's a typo :{[] it should be 25cm. From what I've gathered it's faster than stealth suits.

Andrew_NZ wrote:
This +50 point costing would make the upgraded formations significantly more expensive and I'd probably not select them either.
Agreed two of them would make the formation hardly worth taking.
How about one ghostkeel replacing two stealth and no surcharge. That gives it a price of 66 pts.
A bit on the cheap side in my estimation for the added firepower and 4+RA, but at the same time it comes with it's own drawbacks as you pointed out. Easier to break/supress the formation, loss of range/need to be closer, no MLs and the formation becomes vulnerable to AT fire. We could use that as a starting point for testing at least.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 8:16 pm 
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Do you think the Ghostkeel should have Walker?
All the other suits, heavier and lighter, do or are infantry already.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 5:34 pm 
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Andrew_NZ wrote:
Do you think the Ghostkeel should have Walker?
All the other suits, heavier and lighter, do or are infantry already.

It definitely should. It's another omission. Apparently doesn't matter how many times one proof reads something. Some faults get in there anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:05 pm 
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I recently managed to get into this forum after more than a year of browsing it.
I've played third sphere list tau, viorla and this new viorla list.

Third sphere felt a bit weak, so I tried Viorla and I fell in love with it.
After a lot of time of the list being unchanged, I have to admit that I felt kind of annoyed because you changed so many things.

For example the lack of tetras and the nerf to Riptides felt very wrong. I wouldn't miss Crisis suits, though, as they see wasteful and underwhelming.
But after the second batch of changes, the list felt more comfortable.

I wanted to put my little grain of sand trying to get the list to approved status:

-Pathfinders in core slot is a good idea. I like pathfinders, but there was little usage for them. Tetra upgrade for free for them is definitely an awesome choice, because a squad with 3 tetras + 2 pathfinders + a devilfish has more fire power than 6 tetras, being almost equally mobile and able to do what tetras do.

-I like having more big battlesuits to pick other than Riptides, but the lack of proxies makes me unable to use as many as I would want to. But I don't see a legit reason to make mixed squad of diferente battlesuits, why type it in a way that lets you pick one of each heavy suit?

-Ethereal lacks inspiring commander in this list, even if it has inspiring and the same price in every other Tau list. Is this intentional or a mistake?

-Crisis upgrade for fire warriors makes me want to ask a lot of questions, I'll ask them one by one. I understand that it's supposed to be for the leader, but can you put your Ethereal in a crisis suit? It would be thematic, but the wording doesn’t seem to let you do it, and the same question but about Fireblade.
Second question: how is this upgrade supposed to be used? 2 crisis is enough so your squad can't be deployed as a patrol, and those 20 cm movement crisis will hinder your squad's movement if you deploy them normally. Are you supposed to put them in a stationary fire warriors squad with hammerheads, Broadsides or a skyray whose purpose is standing still on overwatch?
I thought the idea was giving your squad more fire power for Orca ground attacks, but it being limited to only 2 crisis per squad made me wonder if I got the wrong idea.

-Did you think on giving fire warriors the heavy battlesuit upgrade? Having your guys running around the cover from a war engine sounds very interesting. Maybe a special transport war engine battlesuit, if that makes any sense (I have little idea about Tau fluff).

-I tried ghostkeels in a game in their current state, and they feel killy enough but too tanky for their price. Is the invulnerable save intended to be there? A 6+ save after double 4+ feels unnecessary.
I'm not sure if the upgrade replacing 2 Xv15 is a good idea, as it would make the squad with too few units, how about the current price but 5+ reinforced instead of 4+ reinforced? (same save as Xv15).
On the other hand, it would be great if Xv15's weapons were Ap4/At5, as they can barely gank and damage enemy tank artillery, as other factions' teleporters would (ghostkeels kind of solve this, but I want my Xv15 to be more versatile).

-Skyrays feel terribly obsolete. Not only the skysweep squad, but also the skyray upgrade. Take an AA shot out of him and half the price, I would rather have two fire warrior cafres with a skyray with one AA shot each, than only one with two shots, to cover more ground. IG's hunters cost 50 point and cover 45 cm, I would rather have one of those.
Or you could go the battlesuit way and make a brand new big guy with AA value, the same way big robots solve hammerheads' inefficiency (iirc Viorla Tau Uk's Supremacy have AA, that sounds useful).

-By my experience, not being fearless and only saving 5+ against MW is what balances Riptides, but Supremacy and Stormsurge save with 4+,4+,5+, which means they save 4+,5+ against MW. I find it great, but a friend pointed out that three saving rolls doesn’t feel fair.

-Marksman Fire warriors are a good choice and I want you to keep them, but they aren't really as different to Pathfinders as you wanted them, they are just pathfinders for 25 less points. Maybe 50 points for 2 marksmen without the devilfish, for Orca assault. They are a good idea, though.

-I like Broadsides dropped from Orcas, but I would love it if I had the chance to overload my Broadside squads, is there a chance they can get the broadside upgrade? 9 Broadsides from an Orca sounds like a lot of fire power.

-I miss Tigersharks Ax10, is their omission intended?

-Supremacy suits having three weapon choices feels fun and gives room for choice, but I think 275 points is a bit expensive for them.

-Stormsurges are fun and strong in Minigeddon games for coordinated fire across the board, I think they are good enough as they are, no clue why do I never see them in battle repports.

-The description of Armour Support Group makes you think that you have to pay 25 points for each hammerhead you want to give a railhead, which probably isn't what you meant. But it might be just me.

Thank you very much for your effort working on the list.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 11:30 pm 
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Thanks for your well thought through feedback. I don’t have time to adress it all at the moment. Just wanted to let you know I’ve read it and that I will get back to you.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 6:52 am 
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CarlixTomix wrote:
For example the lack of tetras and the nerf to Riptides felt very wrong.
I also am rather less enamoured with the drop in ranged capability with the Riptides. Firepower in the 30-45 cm range is almost all gone. Lance is very situational in power projection out to 30 cm and 15 cm is very close before the MW cuts in.

CarlixTomix wrote:
I wouldn't miss Crisis suits, though, as they see wasteful and underwhelming.
The upgrade with AT6+ on the Plasma Rifle along with an extra two stands for 75 points is probably enough to help the Crisis Cadre to punch near its weight.

CarlixTomix wrote:
I like having more big battlesuits to pick other than Riptides, but the lack of proxies makes me unable to use as many as I would want to. But I don't see a legit reason to make mixed squad of differentiate battlesuits, why type it in a way that lets you pick one of each heavy suit?
My current test lists add a longer range battle suit to at least ensure the formation can at lay a BM if they can't get close enough otherwise. It is also letting me vary formation costs to ensure the BTS is unique and a good option, as well as adjusting overall points costs to soak up odd 25 point leftovers.


CarlixTomix wrote:
Skyrays feel terribly obsolete. Not only the skysweep squad, but also the skyray upgrade. Take an AA shot out of him and half the price, I would rather have two fire warrior cafres with a skyray with one AA shot each, than only one with two shots, to cover more ground. IG's hunters cost 50 point and cover 45 cm, I would rather have one of those.
I have always thought that the Skyray for 100 points was one of the design weaknesses for the Tau list. It costs over the odds to get ground AA since the Tau emphasise the Air Caste use of Fighters/Bombers/Air Power. The extra features of the Skyray which are part of the cost can rarely all be used: close range AP ignore cover, markerlights, etc. The price drop to 75 points on the proposed Epic UK list is attractive/appropriate.


CarlixTomix wrote:
I like Broadsides dropped from Orcas, but I would love it if I had the chance to overload my Broadside squads, is there a chance they can get the broadside upgrade? 9 Broadsides from an Orca sounds like a lot of fire power.
Just buy two formations and put them both in the same Orca. Pretty courageous committing that many points to an armour 4+ transport (no RA, no Deflector Shield), but I have done it and it does work sort of.

CarlixTomix wrote:
Supremacy suits having three weapon choices feels fun and gives room for choice, but I think 275 points is a bit expensive for them.
Realise that the 3BP version has history, and hence the higher cost. I like the lower cost less powerful options in the Epic UK list.

CarlixTomix wrote:
Stormsurges are fun and strong in Minigeddon games for coordinated fire across the board, I think they are good enough as they are, no clue why do I never see them in battle reports.
There are no markerlights on the Stormsurges? Keeping track of 4 single shot Guided Missiles on each unit seems like a distinct logistical overhead. Although possibly more attractive and less risky for my hard working markerlight teams.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:47 am 
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I've been following this development with interest, from some recent playtests of the EUK version, I've actually decided to drop the skyray upgrade from the heavy suit formation as we found it too much of a force multiplier, the huge AA bubble coupled with giving the powerful riptide-sized suits markerlights is a bit too much for a lot of armies to handle, but the EUK list keeps the older stats for the weapons on the riptides (45cm MW3+ and 2x45cm AP4+/AT5+)

in my last game, a formation of xv107's with a skyray got 10 hits on a guardian formation in cover, I noted that without the skyray, it would have been a more reasonable 5.....

Our approach has been to add a Velocity tracker to the heavy suits, giving them a 30cm AA6+ shot each so they can still deter air assaults without hugely increasing the flak bubble, this also means they can't carry markerlights around with them

I'm not sure how relevant this is to the NetEA list, but felt it might be useful to bear in mind if the big suits are dominating games :)

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:29 am 
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Where does EpicUK development get discussed? I tried to find the Viorla UK list and found nothing (I can only find the aproved UK lists and can't find a forum or wherever you discuss developmental lists or changes).

I have the version you posted in the page 2 of this thread, but that might not be the most updated version.

By the way, is there a reason why special rules aren't explained in any of those two lists? I know them, sure, but I like having them in the list, so I don't need to download the oldest lists if my opponent wants to check any Tau special rules.

Thank you very much.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:46 am 
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CarlixTomix wrote:
Where does EpicUK development get discussed? I tried to find the Viorla UK list and found nothing (I can only find the aproved UK lists and can't find a forum or wherever you discuss developmental lists or changes).

I have the version you posted in the page 2 of this thread, but that might not be the most updated version.

By the way, is there a reason why special rules aren't explained in any of those two lists? I know them, sure, but I like having them in the list, so I don't need to download the oldest lists if my opponent wants to check any Tau special rules.

Thank you very much.


rather than clutter the thread, I sent you a PM :)

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 12:27 am 
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Just played a game against this list full of suits, using a standard sort of Chaos Marine list. Gave up end of turn 1, which is something I've only done once before vs another unbalanced list.

The Y'vahra Battlesuits in particular seem horrifically overpowered for 275 points. Threat range of 60cm (double plus range), and can duck back behind cover with jetpacks. They just annihlilated things.
6DC with 3+/5+inv Amour,
Shooting: 3x MW3+ at 15, 9x AP3+/AT4+ IC at 15
CC: 6x CC5+ (2CC hits)
FF: 9x FF4+ attacks. (4.5FFhits)

Compared for example with Knight Errant for 330:
6DC with 5+RA, OR 4+ inv Armour (not from crossfire/supporting fire)
Shooting: 3x MW4+ at 30
CC: 6xCC4+, 3xTK4+ (3CC hits, 1.5 TK hits)
FF: 9x FF5+ attacks (3FS), 3xFF5+MW (3FF hits, 1 FFMW hit)

Given FF is more useful than CC, especially for WE, essentially it seems the Y suit gets 9x AP3+/AT4+ IC, plus markerlight and co-ordinated fire synergy and jet pack on top of the abilities of the Knight Errant. And better initiative and SR. 400+ points looks nearer the mark and even that may be too little. I'd recommend upping the points and toning down Firepower significantly.

Pathfinders also synergise with everything, in addition to being brutal in their own right with +1 to hit on disruption and sniper shots compared to other scouts, and are a bargain at 200 yet alone 175.

Generally speaking there seems to be a problem with new armies having a bad case of power creep, with increasing armour values, mega weapon and other abilities on more weapons.
Vior'la Tau also seems to be just a souped up version of normal Tau list, with few drawbacks that I can see.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 7:29 am 
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Andrew_NZ wrote:
CarlixTomix wrote:
For example the lack of tetras and the nerf to Riptides felt very wrong.
I also am rather less enamoured with the drop in ranged capability with the Riptides. Firepower in the 30-45 cm range is almost all gone. Lance is very situational in power projection out to 30 cm and 15 cm is very close before the MW cuts in.

A lot people have given me bad feedback on this and it might be considered a nerf and also a big change, so that's fair. I personally think it's at the same level of power as the former version (Matts ie). You have to get a lot closer though, so that's of course a drawback. But to me lance is MW light.

My reasoning for the changes was that Epic has typically tried to be true to the actual miniatures when it comes to which weapons they have represented in the game. At least the original lists. I'm thinking of Steel Legion for instance. Good examples are the leman russ, chimera and baneblade to name a few. Matts former version was rediciolous from this perspective. I will not introduce it with the same weapons again, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss it of course.

The Vior'la list also had (has?) a bit of a problem of MW/TK spam. I wanted to limit this and that's why I chose the 15 cm MW range. To get longer range MW you have to go to the support formations. I think this is a good thing.

Another consideration was the R'varna. I really like the UK lists heavy suit formation. And I wanted to differentiate between the three different units. Both of them (riptide + R'varna) having all their attacks at 45 cm seemed boring and a lost opportunity.
If we were to find a solution were we get the Riptide back to 45cm only, then I'd likey want to remove the R'varna from the list as they are just to much alike. Perhaps we should start a seperate thread for this discussion.

Andrew_NZ wrote:
CarlixTomix wrote:
I wouldn't miss Crisis suits, though, as they see wasteful and underwhelming.
The upgrade with AT6+ on the Plasma Rifle along with an extra two stands for 75 points is probably enough to help the Crisis Cadre to punch near its weight.

I could live without them, but they are iconic and several have requested their reinclusion. We given the above two small boost. At the moment I think that's enough.

Andrew_NZ wrote:
CarlixTomix wrote:
I like having more big battlesuits to pick other than Riptides, but the lack of proxies makes me unable to use as many as I would want to. But I don't see a legit reason to make mixed squad of differentiate battlesuits, why type it in a way that lets you pick one of each heavy suit?
My current test lists add a longer range battle suit to at least ensure the formation can at lay a BM if they can't get close enough otherwise. It is also letting me vary formation costs to ensure the BTS is unique and a good option, as well as adjusting overall points costs to soak up odd 25 point leftovers.

I can see reasons for mixing the Y'vahra and Riptide. But I agree on the R'varna with it's slow movement and more static support feel. It doesn't mix well with the other two. I have been contemplating mixing it with the Stormsurge in the support section, it does looks to me like a more natural fit.

Andrew_NZ wrote:
CarlixTomix wrote:
Skyrays feel terribly obsolete. Not only the skysweep squad, but also the skyray upgrade. Take an AA shot out of him and half the price, I would rather have two fire warrior cafres with a skyray with one AA shot each, than only one with two shots, to cover more ground. IG's hunters cost 50 point and cover 45 cm, I would rather have one of those.
I have always thought that the Skyray for 100 points was one of the design weaknesses for the Tau list. It costs over the odds to get ground AA since the Tau emphasise the Air Caste use of Fighters/Bombers/Air Power. The extra features of the Skyray which are part of the cost can rarely all be used: close range AP ignore cover, markerlights, etc. The price drop to 75 points on the proposed Epic UK list is attractive/appropriate.

I actually agree please test them at 75pts if you want. I found it on par with the hunter, the extra benefit of its markerlights are usually hard to utilize as one doesn't really want to close with the enemy with skyrays.
I chose not to lower the cost like the UK to use a cautious approach. There's so many new things in the list compared to third phase so wanted to limit changes to shared stuff, especially the ones with markerlights and I've already been experimenting with the pathfinders.

Andrew_NZ wrote:
CarlixTomix wrote:
I like Broadsides dropped from Orcas, but I would love it if I had the chance to overload my Broadside squads, is there a chance they can get the broadside upgrade? 9 Broadsides from an Orca sounds like a lot of fire power.
Just buy two formations and put them both in the same Orca. Pretty courageous committing that many points to an armour 4+ transport (no RA, no Deflector Shield), but I have done it and it does work sort of.

An idea I hadn't considered. Can't see much problem with is as upgrades aren't that good with how they limit ones activation count.

Andrew_NZ wrote:
CarlixTomix wrote:
Supremacy suits having three weapon choices feels fun and gives room for choice, but I think 275 points is a bit expensive for them.
Realise that the 3BP version has history, and hence the higher cost. I like the lower cost less powerful options in the Epic UK list.

Perhaps a bit expensive. Will see how it does in testing. For now I'd like to keep it at 275 since it can hit quite hard at long range.

Andrew_NZ wrote:
CarlixTomix wrote:
Stormsurges are fun and strong in Minigeddon games for coordinated fire across the board, I think they are good enough as they are, no clue why do I never see them in battle reports.
There are no markerlights on the Stormsurges? Keeping track of 4 single shot Guided Missiles on each unit seems like a distinct logistical overhead. Although possibly more attractive and less risky for my hard working markerlight teams.

The change was from a whish to be true to the fluff, but I see your point. I didn't think that one thru. I hate unnecessary book keeping and 4 shots will be a pain. Will change back to last version.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 10:08 am 
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Having played Tau against Mark in the abandoned game referred to above - I'll write more soon,
Borka, some quick feedback - clarifications.

I'll go back and have another look at your Riptide version of armament. The extra shooting attack probably makes more difference than I thought. Also the 25 cm mobility, with some 10 cm Tau Jetpacking afterwards makes the shorter ranged options still reasonably effective. More up close and personal. So I've retreated from negative to I'll try it and see!! Having one Riptide in a Y'vahra formation did give that extra ranged BM placing ability too!

I am not advocating for the inclusion of a Crisis Suit Cadre in the Vior'la list. Just wanting to clarify my vote for the slight upgrades to make the formation viable, in the hope that it will be adopted for all Tau lists.

Don't have any problem with adding the Broadside upgrade [add up to 3 more] to the Broadside group. Just wanted to point out it was a costly option (points/activation count) and you could fly in two 6 strong formations in one Orca - as I've done in one game, once!

Think that your 275 point Storm Surges with the extra weapons should not be cheaper. Just that with the mix of weapon ranges you are paying for some capability that your can't always use.

Cool, I'll look at a 75 point Skyray upgrade. Maybe also a 225 points for the 3 Skyray formation? The 75 point upgrade on the Heavy Battlesuit formations would probably lead me to spreading them across lots of formations creating a VERY heavy AA umbrella. Once you get enough you don't worry about losing a few and can then get very aggressive with throwing them forward as mobile markerlights. Their vulnerability to being AT sniped also becomes less important. If you are dropping the price I'd take them off the Suits as an upgrade - but more on that when I provide more detail from our last "game".


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 3:27 pm 
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Markconz wrote:
Just played a game against this list full of suits, using a standard sort of Chaos Marine list. Gave up end of turn 1, which is something I've only done once before vs another unbalanced list.

The Y'vahra Battlesuits in particular seem horrifically overpowered for 275 points. Threat range of 60cm (double plus range), and can duck back behind cover with jetpacks. They just annihlilated things.
6DC with 3+/5+inv Amour,
Shooting: 3x MW3+ at 15, 9x AP3+/AT4+ IC at 15
CC: 6x CC5+ (2CC hits)
FF: 9x FF4+ attacks. (4.5FFhits)

Compared for example with Knight Errant for 330:
6DC with 5+RA, OR 4+ inv Armour (not from crossfire/supporting fire)
Shooting: 3x MW4+ at 30
CC: 6xCC4+, 3xTK4+ (3CC hits, 1.5 TK hits)
FF: 9x FF5+ attacks (3FS), 3xFF5+MW (3FF hits, 1 FFMW hit)

Given FF is more useful than CC, especially for WE, essentially it seems the Y suit gets 9x AP3+/AT4+ IC, plus markerlight and co-ordinated fire synergy and jet pack on top of the abilities of the Knight Errant. And better initiative and SR. 400+ points looks nearer the mark and even that may be too little. I'd recommend upping the points and toning down Firepower significantly.


Thanks for the feedback. Sounds really harsh. I will try to stresstest the Y’vahra in my next game and take 2 formations at least.

The price was lowered compared to the other suits based on their short range (having to close with the enemy). High risk - high reward. I see two solutions if we find them to strong. a) lowerd attacks by one on the IC flamer. The extra FF attack could be considred a fourth attack anyway. b) increase the price again.
Possibly both

Markconz wrote:
Pathfinders also synergise with everything, in addition to being brutal in their own right with +1 to hit on disruption and sniper shots compared to other scouts, and are a bargain at 200 yet alone 175.

Good discussion. Price was lowered to promote them being taken. I want them as a basic formation in the list one can’t do without for theme reasons. I think they should be the main markerlight contributor. Multiple scout formations at cheap price (175 pts) is a tau mainstay in third phase as well. I don’t think that’s a problem. The pathfinder formation trades manouverabillity for increased firepower and survivability compared to the 3rd phase recon formation. I see them as about the same from a power perspective. Any one else who agrees that the lowerd price was an unnecessary boost?


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 7:04 pm 
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Borka wrote:
I see them as about the same from a power perspective. Any one else who agrees that the lowerd price was an unnecessary boost?


From my experience they are marginally more useful than tetras, and give a different taste to the list, which is nice.
And Pathfinders were barely used both in 3rd phase and in Viorla tau, so the change makes a lot of sense to me.

I didn't really try Y'varha yet, so I can't really talk about that, but I'll try them as soon as I can.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 10:09 pm 
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Borka wrote:
I see them as about the same from a power perspective. Any one else who agrees that the lowerd price was an unnecessary boost?


I'd agree with this as well. The loss of the mobility/flexibility is what stands out to me most comparing the two, along with the fact that 9 times out of 10 with 3rd Sphere players you would see 175 pt recon formations brought over the 200pt Pathfinders. Plus, if you're trying to max out marker lights, you can get six out of the recon formation v five maximum from the scouts.

I thought the idea of making them core for Vior'la, given the fluff, was a good one as well.

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