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Cost/pricing model for d10 system

 Post subject: Cost/pricing model for d10 system
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:43 pm 
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Hi!

As I work on a 30k supplement (if anyone has a better term since I don't think the word "supplement" is quite accurate for this project), its relatively simple to do rules, abilities and ultimately stat lines.

A fair and balanced cost/pricing system however is perhaps the most difficult part of design.

While I have done this before (as in the case of my Heresy Rules), I consider that effort very "basic" as far as a cost system goes.

Therefore I am interested in design approaches and philosophies on how people like to approach this type of design.

While by no means an exhaustive list, this is a listing of the salient points of the rule set being developed.

1. Uses d10 for all game mechanics resolution (I am limiting or eliminating the use of all other die types).
2. Continue to use the basic game structure of net epic gold. While certain definitions and special types of interactions will change, it retains the overall mechanical framework from Gold (orders, turn sequence, unit sta tline, weapon statlines, etc).
3. Faithful conversion of 30k. I am not really "coming up" with stuff for the rule set, but rather translating data from the horus heresy black and red books produced from forgeworld. I will use conversions and paradigms of converting 30k stat lines into epic 30k stat lines as "proportional" as it can reasonably done. Note that while this may sound very involved, epic 1st edition stat line values are already very close to what some conversions will yield. Allowances of course for the use of the d10 (instead of d6) will modify those conversions.
4. Titan streamlining. The system I will come up with is closer to 1st edition, but not exactly that either. It is much more simplified than second edition. It consists of an overall armor save, rolling for shot location and rolling on damage location if saves are failed. I may modify this further is the upcoming AT system is malleable enough to include some elements (power management for example).
5. Widespread use of DR (damage rating/multiple wounds). This rule set returns to the first edition paradigm where armor and capacity for damage absorption are separate concepts and mechanical constructs.

All opinons welcome!

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Cost/pricing model for d10 system
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:07 am 
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I would need to see some examples of various models / stands' stat lines before I could try to adapt the Points Formula to this new project. Assuming you would like that. A selection of models / stands from each Pinning Class would be helpful, especially some with Multiple Wounds, and any other rules you are changing or adding.

Admittedly, I have no real knowledge of what you are planning for Titans (aside from the brief description above), so you may have thought of this already. Perhaps add a chart between failing the armor save and rolling for hit location. This chart would look something like:
1-8) Titan looses 1 Wound
9-10) roll for damage location
Penetrating would add to the roll against this chart, as well as the specific location charts for damage taken.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost/pricing model for d10 system
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:13 pm 
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Just a crazy idea. Have you thought of using d12's instead of d10's? Then you can simply double the values of everything thereby not arbitrary changing the odds like you'd have to with d10, but allowing 50% more granularity where needed.


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 Post subject: Re: Cost/pricing model for d10 system
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:46 am 
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Storm Puppy wrote:
Just a crazy idea. Have you thought of using d12's instead of d10's? Then you can simply double the values of everything thereby not arbitrary changing the odds like you'd have to with d10, but allowing 50% more granularity where needed.


Stormpuppy


Hi!

This was mentioned and I believe it would be easier to port over 30k/40k data and stats over to epic using a d12, but most people like d10 and the conversion work has begun (and is nearly finished) using a d10.

That said, its merely "popularity" that caused the d10 to win out over a s12, since the "counting by tens" is easier for most players.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Cost/pricing model for d10 system
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:05 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I would need to see some examples of various models / stands' stat lines before I could try to adapt the Points Formula to this new project. Assuming you would like that. A selection of models / stands from each Pinning Class would be helpful, especially some with Multiple Wounds, and any other rules you are changing or adding.

Admittedly, I have no real knowledge of what you are planning for Titans (aside from the brief description above), so you may have thought of this already. Perhaps add a chart between failing the armor save and rolling for hit location. This chart would look something like:
1-8) Titan looses 1 Wound
9-10) roll for damage location
Penetrating would add to the roll against this chart, as well as the specific location charts for damage taken.


Hi!

Agreed, its hard to recommend anything without stat lines done.

The conversion work for porting over 30k stats to epic has been done. The true work of stat creation will begin shortly. Once I have some stat lines generated I will post some for cost considerations.

While the general frame work of the rules are akin to the net epic standard. Thier definitions and some base assumptions have been altered to the point I think it best to create a cost scheme from scratch. Also, the use of a d10 should make a new cost scheme perhaps easier. I haven't created a cost formula since I did so for the Heresy rule set, but I am eager to hammer one out for this supplement. :)

I will post my titan idea soon. It very "management free". Also much closer to standard units with its own twist. I may have found a way to simulate the power requirements of weapons, without having to manage plasma or needing special datasheets. Thus eliminating cost for weapons, but preserving weapons selection "freedom" and balance (risk vs reward is built into weapon selection). This returns titan cost as a function of its "hull value" and armor without the tedious calculations for weapons.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Cost/pricing model for d10 system
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:46 am 
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I will try to keep an open mind about the Titan Weapons until I see what you have, but I don't think that is possible. What you are saying is that you are making it so that a Vulcan Mega-Bolter has the same effective cost as a Volcano Cannon or a Barrage Missile Launcher. I just cannot see that happening.

The "power requirements" for weapons have nothing to do with their costs. Well, almost nothing. Just the Imperator main weapons and the Self-Powered Plasma weapons worry about that. The cost of a weapon is based on how good it is, which is the same for all other models.

Next you will be telling us that the cost of a Volkite Cannon will be the same as for a stand of Bolters. Just not possible.

---------------------

Can you specify exactly what is changing in the base rules and assumptions? You really cannot change much and still be able to call it the same as NetEpic Gold.

How can the conversion work be done and the stats not be created? In my mind, if the conversion work is done, then the stats are done. If not, then not. I am really not following you there.

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 Post subject: Re: Cost/pricing model for d10 system
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:21 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I will try to keep an open mind about the Titan Weapons until I see what you have, but I don't think that is possible. What you are saying is that you are making it so that a Vulcan Mega-Bolter has the same effective cost as a Volcano Cannon or a Barrage Missile Launcher. I just cannot see that happening.

The "power requirements" for weapons have nothing to do with their costs. Well, almost nothing. Just the Imperator main weapons and the Self-Powered Plasma weapons worry about that. The cost of a weapon is based on how good it is, which is the same for all other models.

Next you will be telling us that the cost of a Volkite Cannon will be the same as for a stand of Bolters. Just not possible.

---------------------

Can you specify exactly what is changing in the base rules and assumptions? You really cannot change much and still be able to call it the same as NetEpic Gold.

How can the conversion work be done and the stats not be created? In my mind, if the conversion work is done, then the stats are done. If not, then not. I am really not following you there.


Hi!

My approach "equates" effectiveness and how much of a power drain weapon "x" puts on the reactor. Similar weapons will drain a similar amount. If you look at the point costs of titan weapons as they exist in gold, there are lots of weapons that cost 50 points, 75, 100, etc. Instead of cost I could just say those weapons consume the same amount of energy, thus making them "equivalent" choices. Even though the stats may be different. Even when you look at weapons values under the newer formula is a volcano cannon at 161 really all that different from self powered plasma cannon at 174? Or a trident at 46 versus a melta cannon at 52? The system I am building assumes such narrow differences to be moot and such weapons are lumped together under what I well call "power rating".

A player will simply assemble the weapons he wishes to fit on the titan adding their power ratings together and comparing it to the titans overall "reactor rating". If the two values match then the titan functions within the stats the base line titan has. If it goes over that reactor limit then something must be sacrificed to make up for the extra power taken by weapons (lower movement, less shields, etc). If its lower than the reactor rating, then the surplus power can be added to more speed (move), shields, etc). All these parameters are explained with clear lines as to limits in either direction. All cost stays within the confines of then titan hull as based on its standard stats and reactor rating (which determines how and which weapons it can fit).

The systems seems to recreate 1st edition titan building very closely, without the unnecessary burden of points calculation.

Also note that this system is for "engines" (titans and such) only. Weapons for lesser units remain with the same stat line and associated cost that is part of the models total cost.

The "conversions" I am referring to are the mathematical formula guidelines for converting 30k stats (from the heresy black and red books) to numbers in the context of a d10 system for epic. In other words I now know what Armor 12 in 28mm 30k means in 6mm epic 30k for this rule set. Based on these conversion guideline "formulas" I can now generate stat lines with a good degree of "fidelity" that the 28mm and 6mm versions of units will be "equivalent" as I generate them.

Finally, its not net epic gold. As I mentioned elsewhere I used the word "supplement" for lack of a better word. Besides the d10 use, order definitions have changed (gone back to 1st edition definitions), special ability definitions (PD for example) are being changed or expanded. Rules mechanics of close combat (now armor saves apply like in 1st edition) and shooting (short and long range bands, again like 1st edition) are all being added/modified.

What is kept? The basic turn sequence, stat lines, combat resolution (application of modifiers, etc), army cards and army construction. Its the same basic "skeleton" but with key modifications in key areas. Enough to produce a "distinct" experience from standard gold. That is what those interested in this project seem to want. Something based on gold, but enough changes to make it "its own thing". I am grateful that there seems to be much enthusiasm for it given the requests for the draft of the work in progress. :)

Given how many specific details will change, a different cost formualtion is needed. A simpler one, preferably with rounded numbers, since my feedback from those inquiring about the draft and project seem to be strongly in that direction.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Cost/pricing model for d10 system
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:25 am 
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Got it. Then all of that precludes my involvement. Thanks and good luck to you.

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