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Gargant Big Mob list development

 Post subject: Gargant Big Mob list development
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:17 pm 
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Ok guys! Since i have the honour of being Sub-AC over the Gargant list heres a few thoughts of how and what i want to work with.

I would like to keep the discussion about the list very practical and geared toward game-balanced issues. I don't care so much about fluff and I'm not going to take that or any non-approved lists into consideration when ironing out this one.
Also, and this is important, I'm not gonna change that much about the list as it is now. Theres not going to be a complete make over of everything but rather a few small changes here and there. So thoose with a gazillion suggestions should pick out the 2 things that they feel are very important and present them too me.

So what do i want to do then?

What i really want to do
I want to include stompa mobs in this list. We have any other option of armoured walkers (gargants, supa-stompas, killa kans) in the list and it feels weird not to have one link in that chain missing.
I also want to give the Stompa Mobs a 25/25/50 points reduction to make them more of a viable choice in this list. No one will take Stompa Mobs over Lootas with the 50 point difference between the choices as it is now.

What i could do
Take out Drop Rocks, not sure they are really needed.
Revise some weapon options.
Give the Supa-Stompa a 25 points drop since it way more vunerable on it's own than bought as an upgrade to a Stompa Mob.

I will probably add or adjust some things. I need to read thru the list a few times first. I've already done a Battle Report with the Stompa Mobs ncluded in the list, but without the planned points drop. I will present that soon.

So ladies and gentlemen, if you have any opinions and advice that will help the list forward, fire away! But please read what i wrote in the start of this text first...

EDIT 2015-02-24

New list uploaded (version 3.1?)
- Gargants are now fully customized like their AMTL counterparts.
_ Gargant and Great Gargant cost has been lowered.
- Gargant weapon options has been slightly reworked and costed individually.
- Kustom upgrades has been reworked and ha a lower cost than before (25 points).
- Supa Stompas can only be bought in singles but can add Stompas to their formation.
- Stompa Mobs introduced in the list again: cheaper price then i nthe Warhorde list 200/350/500
- "Tellyporta" rule dropped.
- Odd boys cannot take Kustom upgrades anymore. They now have acess to Gargant weapons only.
- Mega gargants have recieved 5+ Reinforced Armour and both the Transporta and Wyrdboy Tower upgrade.

EDIT 2015-02-25
New version uploaded (version 3.1.1)
- Typos and formatting fixed.
- Head of Gork/Mork added to Kustom Upgrades.
- Stompa Upgrade changed to +60 per unit.
- Nobz added as 0-1 choice for Lootas at +35 points.
- Great Gargant cost lowered to 675 points.

EDIT 2015-03-09
New version uploaded (version 3.2)
- Changed the wording and notes to "transporta" and "More Dakka" Kustom Upgrades.
- Stated Bommer and priced it at 175 points.
- Typos and Formatting fixed.
- Added reference sheet for all units.
- Added special rule giving all Gargant formations +2 modifier always when using "Mob Rule" special rule.
- Dropped the Drop Rock (hehe).

EDIT 2015-08-05
New version uploaded (version 3.2.1)
- Cost of Mega Gargant lowered 50p.
- Cost of Great Gargant lowered 25p.
- Cost of Gargant lowered 25p.
- Snapper weapon taken out, replaced by "Supa-Skorcha".
- Ripper Fist stats changed.
- Wyrdboy Tower upgrade changed.

EDIT 2015-11-20
Version 3.2.2 uploaded.
- Lootas changed to 1 Killa Kan/Big Gun and 25 points drop.
- Killa Kan Mob added.

EDIT 2016-02-06
New version uploaded (version 3.2.3)
- Ripper fist weapon lowered to 25p.
-All extra unit upgrades removed from all Gargants.

EDIT 2016-02-29

New version uploaded (Version 3.3)

- Supa-Stompas dropped to 275p.
- "Push 'em arder ladz" special rule added to all Gargant formations and Supa-Stompas.
- Supa-Stompas got included in the special "mob rule" rule (where they always get a +2 modifier).
- Reinforced boilers upgrade changed.

EDIT 2016-05-26

New Version uploaded (version 3.3.1)

- "Push em arder ladz" rule changed to 1 auto fire per activation using the rule.
- Wyrdboy tower upgrade replaced by Flakka Dakka upgrade.
- Reinforced boiler upgrade dropped.

EDIT 2016-12-22

New version uploaded (3.3.2)

- Gatling kannon changed from 6x AP4+/AT5+ to 6xAP5+/AT5+.
- AT-capability taken out from bommers armaments.
- Supa-Stompas increased to 300p.
- Typos fixed.
- added 0-2 restriction for Gun Fortress upgrade for Lootas.
- Changed wording on the "push em 'arder" rule.
- Changed Ripper fist from D3+1 to D3 attacks.

EDIT 2017-01-05

- Changed list structure and made 1 Mega gargant or Great Gargant a mandatory choice in the list.
- Added "This ability may not be used by Mega Gargants" to the "push em harder ladz" rule.

EDIT 2017-02-23

New version uploaded (Version 3.5) All new changes in magenta colour in files.

- Great gargant increased by 25p
- Power fields and Extra armour bits upgrades increased to 50p
- Supa-Stompas Mob rule changed to only giving +1.
- "Push em arder ladz" rule changed to giving a fire for every separate move it's used.
- "more Dakka" upgrade taken away and replaced by "Boss Nobz" upgrade.
- Stompas formation increased to 4 units with new pricing.


Attachments:
Gargant weapons and upgrades 3.5.pdf [53.29 KiB]
Downloaded 147 times
Gargant Big Mob reference sheet 3.5.pdf [62.4 KiB]
Downloaded 158 times
Gargant Big Mob 3.5.pdf [62.59 KiB]
Downloaded 164 times

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:15 pm 
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What would be good is to see some list builds as well. This will help to show what you are looking to achieve and give pointers to what needs working on.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:57 pm 
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Yes, i will do that. Heres is the bild i used for my latest report (no points reduction for stompa mobs here):

Incompertus, 2995 POINTS
Gargant Bigmob (V3.03)
==================================================

GARGANT [770]
No Kustom Upgrade, (Big Kustom) Wyrdboy Tower, 2 Deth Koptas

GARGANT [700]
No Kustom Upgrade, (Big Kustom) Wyrdboy Tower

SUPA STOMPA (NORMAL) [375]
1 Supa Stompa, No Kustom Upgrade, (Big Kustom) Wyrdboy Tower

SUPA STOMPA (NORMAL) [375]
1 Supa Stompa, No Kustom Upgrade, (Big Kustom) Wyrdboy Tower

STOMPA MOB (NORMAL) [225]
3 Stompas

FIGHTA-BOMMERS [250]
5 Fighta-Bommers

FIGHTA-BOMMERS [150]
3 Fighta-Bommers

FIGHTA-BOMMERS [150]
3 Fighta-Bommers

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:03 pm 
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Lemme know when you write the new draft list and I'll get it up on armyforge :)

I have 1 great gargant, 2 gargants, 2 supa stompas, a bunch of stompas, and a vast fleet of planes as well as assorted flakwagons, dreads/kanz and ork boyz

I propose a deal.... I'll do at least 3 playtest games of the bigmob if you and your crew do some for the imperial fists later in the year? Whaddya say? ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:42 pm 
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You have yourself a deal mate! :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:28 am 
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When you say you're not going to change the list too much, are you talking about the list in the Compendium, or E&C's latest version? They're vastly different - the community's suggestions will be different based on the list version.

The two things that I would most like to see as an outcome of this process are:

1) Making the Mega-Gargant a competitively viable choice. At the moment it's simply too expensive for the impact it has on a game, and falls over to a stiff breeze.

2) The ability for warbands to use Gargants (all sizes, including Mega) as viable assault transports - without being forced to abandon their AA protection to do so. The Ork lists lack survivable assault transport options, and Gargants seem a good way to balance the power of that tactic by making it enormously expensive.

(I would also add, as a balance and thematic concern, that spamming the crap out of fighta-bommas shouldn't be a defining feature of the list.)

I'm mostly just looking forward to having some of the rules cleaned up so they make sense. :P

Good luck!


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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:47 am 
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Will the Stompas be unit upgrades/additions for the Gargant/Supa-Stompa mobs?
I can see a stompa or two being added as an ablative RA4+ wound, if nothing else, could be a huge bonus

Also, I echo kadeton's sentiment about giving the gargants a viable troop carrying ability - would be tits!
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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:50 am 
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kadeton wrote:
When you say you're not going to change the list too much, are you talking about the list in the Compendium, or E&C's latest version? They're vastly different - the community's suggestions will be different based on the list version.


Huh? I only have the version thats in the Compendium. Do you have a link for the other?

kadeton wrote:
1) Making the Mega-Gargant a competitively viable choice. At the moment it's simply too expensive for the impact it has on a game, and falls over to a stiff breeze.


To be honest I view the Mega Gargant something of s fun feature more than a viable choice. Much like an Imperator Titan in the AMTL list. But I'll look into it if you guys are interested in using it of course! At a first look it's hard to see what can be changed. A points drop would make it to close cost-wise to the Great Gargant. Any suggestions?

kadeton wrote:
2) The ability for warbands to use Gargants (all sizes, including Mega) as viable assault transports - without being forced to abandon their AA protection to do so. The Ork lists lack survivable assault transport options, and Gargants seem a good way to balance the power of that tactic by making it enormously expensive.


Yes, this I agree on. I'm thinking abput moving the Transporta upgrade to a kuston upgrade instead of a Big Kustom one. Not sure it is worth 50 points really. But why would you have to abandon the AA protection? You can have both transporta and Wyrd boy tower upgrades at the same time? Maybe i'm mising the point here?

kadeton wrote:
(I would also add, as a balance and thematic concern, that spamming the crap out of fighta-bommas shouldn't be a defining feature of the list.)


Well, like in the AMTL list you want to have a few cheap activations too. 2-3 units of fighta bombas will probably feature in most lists to get an activation count above 6 activations. Don't want to stop that since it it needed to make the list competetive. I find it hard for any list to do well when its under 8 activations no matter how strong units it has...

kadeton wrote:
I'm mostly just looking forward to having some of the rules cleaned up so they make sense. :P


You're more thean welcome to point out any weird findings! Thats just helpfull to me. Right now I'm only finding the Tellyporta rule a little bit odd...

JummpingJehovah wrote:
Will the Stompas be unit upgrades/additions for the Gargant/Supa-Stompa mobs?
I can see a stompa or two being added as an ablative RA4+ wound, if nothing else, could be a huge bonus

I'm not sure that would be so great because it would make stompa mobs a non viable choice. Why would anyone take a stompa mob if they could take a supa stompa and then add some stompas to it? I would like to see stompas being used in this list on their own and not just like an extra BM-collector to other units.
I'm even thinking about costing them as low as 200 for 3 and then+50 per extra after getting some feedback from Kuyssinchains...

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:02 am 
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Bear in mind that while adding stompas to the formation would increase its break point, it wouldn't be much protection for a war engine which can always be picked out and targeted specifically....

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:29 am 
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Please make a Gargant main weapons all customisable! not just 0-1 so. Either for variable costs like in the ATML list, or a choice of weapons roughly equivalently balanced with each other.

In older editions Gargants could be freely fitted with a range of different weapon types. In EpicA it's boring and unnecessarily limiting that they're mostly limited to MW barrage weapons. I want to be able to field a Gargant with 2 x Gatling Blaster and a Snappa say or 2 x Mega Choppas on a Goff Gargant, I can't see that it would be over-powered and it would add variety and interest to lists. Some people have Gargants with weapons combinations modelled which the currently list arbitrarily doesn't allow.


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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:59 am 
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mordoten wrote:
Huh? I only have the version thats in the Compendium. Do you have a link for the other?


It's listed in this thread - I wouldn't recommend it since it adds severe restrictions to army building, but some of the rules make more sense so it's a handy reference. It also adds stuff like AA versions of Big Gunz that are pretty neat.

mordoten wrote:
To be honest I view the Mega Gargant something of s fun feature more than a viable choice. Much like an Imperator Titan in the AMTL list. But I'll look into it if you guys are interested in using it of course! At a first look it's hard to see what can be changed. A points drop would make it to close cost-wise to the Great Gargant. Any suggestions?


One that E&C bandied around for a while was changing the armour from 4+ to 5+ RA. That would be a decent starting point, I think. (Honestly, my preferred method would be to drop the cost of the Great Gargant because that thing is waaaaaaaay overcosted, but one step at a time.)

mordoten wrote:
I'm thinking abput moving the Transporta upgrade to a kuston upgrade instead of a Big Kustom one. Not sure it is worth 50 points really. But why would you have to abandon the AA protection? You can have both transporta and Wyrd boy tower upgrades at the same time? Maybe i'm mising the point here?


Hmm, I was under the impression that each Gargant could have only one Big Kustom Upgrade. Am I confused?

mordoten wrote:
Well, like in the AMTL list you want to have a few cheap activations too. 2-3 units of fighta bombas will probably feature in most lists to get an activation count above 6 activations. Don't want to stop that since it it needed to make the list competetive. I find it hard for any list to do well when its under 8 activations no matter how strong units it has...


Yep, not dismissing cheap activations, they're essential. I just think there should be more to encourage people to have those cheap activations be ground troops - units of fighta-bommas are a bit of a crutch, and they don't fit particularly well with the theme of the list.

mordoten wrote:
You're more thean welcome to point out any weird findings! Thats just helpfull to me. Right now I'm only finding the Tellyporta rule a little bit odd...


I find lots of them weird when Oddboys attached to Big Gunz units take them (Transporta, lol). I went through some of them in my other thread, but I'll have another look through when I get the chance.

mordoten wrote:
I'm not sure that would be so great because it would make stompa mobs a non viable choice. Why would anyone take a stompa mob if they could take a supa stompa and then add some stompas to it? I would like to see stompas being used in this list on their own and not just like an extra BM-collector to other units.
I'm even thinking about costing them as low as 200 for 3 and then+50 per extra after getting some feedback from Kuyssinchains...


Cheap Stompa mobs would be a great feature of the list! (Cheap Stompas in all the Ork lists would be nice too...)

I think the reason people would take Stompas alone even if they were also available in a Supa-Stompa mob would be the cost - a 200-point Stompa mob would be great for padding out activations, while a 400+ point Supa-Stompa with Stompa friends would be a rock solid armoured unit. (Of course, given the choice between a unit of three Stompas or a unit of four Fighta-bommas, most players would probably still pick the Fighta-bommers.)


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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:40 am 
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I agree on the fighta-bommers, it's odd to see so many of them. I'm just not sure there is a workable way to restrict them. Even if you could only take 20% air, it's still 4 formations of FBs.

IMO to do this you'd need to introduce a ground alternative. i.e. a cheap formation (really 150 or cheaper) but one with a reason to include it. In other armies these might normally be scouts or AA but it doesn't really suit orks to have small formations of vehicles or infantry though.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:56 am 
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+1 to seeing stompas and stompa mobs added to the list in some way.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:25 pm 
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This is still where my group sits with the list:

viewtopic.php?p=507383#p507383

We played a bunch of games with 2.2, had a lot of fun, and then things got juggled about for reasons that seemed little more than personal preference. On top of that, people were happy to approve the list way back when: viewtopic.php?f=83&t=19796. The fact that it didn't happen can be chalked up to real life above anything else.

Bringing the Grotnoughts and the Krawlas back would go a long way towards getting people to play the list in our group again.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:59 pm 
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If I was to make this list I'd make it easier for the gargants to rally. I find that I think they should really be better at that. They represent their gods as giant effigies. They should make the orks in them really bold and I think they should rally on the same rolls as most other titans. I think it might be good for list competitiveness as well.

I did write up a list for how I would represent a more current 40k ork list for fun a while back (I have not posted it anywhere). I added he below special rule effigy. Might be worth considering? It would be added to supa stompas and gargants (of course wouldn't make any difference for the great gargant). The rule was also made with the prospect of adding supa stompas to warbands, so it might need some rewording.

Effigy
Orks flock to the big walking war engines made in the image of their gods. They feel reassured by these giant effigies of Mork and Gork. Who can stop them when their gods are walking amongst them after all? A formation with one or more units with the effigy rule is always treated as having more than 10 units for the purposes of the Mob Rule.


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