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Cobra SHT

 Post subject: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:25 pm 
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This item is one of the only that I don't pick anymore on any Eldar list. Each time I did take it, it rarely got its points back, and was rarely an effective menace.

The way to use it effectively is to March at the end f the first turn and the sustain and the beginning of the second, a very risky move for a very expensive unit, and mostly due to the fact it has very low to-hit value on a very powerful weapon.

3 ways to fix it which I believe are workable and would like to suggest:

1) Add 15 cm to the range of its main cannon. This is what was done to the Decimator to make it viable (now OP though imho). This would allow for a double move order to be viable and therefore would allow it to benefit from its skimmer ability, though the to hit would remain very low, keeping it from being OP.

2) Add 1 BP to its main weapon. Obviously, the weapon would have to be somewhat downgraded (lose IC maybe?) to get it in line. It would still be pretty useless on the first turn, but it would then be a menace without having to have a sustain order.

3) Add 1 BP and 15 cm range. The weapon would have to be seriously downgraded, like changing it TK ability to a simple TK (1).


Thoughts? Is any of this even possible for the Compendium 2013?

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:02 pm 
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I never find the 'it doesn't make it points back' argument very convincing. Could you explain in more detail? A unit need not actually destroy anything in a game to have an impact, as it may be its threat factor alone, or an area of the board which it occupies, which makes it more than worth its inclusion.

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:46 am 
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The Cobra is much better used in a pair of two than on it's own, though they're not that tough and make a risky BTS if they then are one.

Despite the BTS risk I used a pair this way back at the 4k Britcon tournament in 2009 and came 11th of 15th, which I was pretty pleased about, as it was my first tournament with not much practice with the army and I went in expecting I'd probably come last.

I'm fairly sure the Cobra got discussed a lot in the past and various things proposed or tried, but in the end it was decided it was ok as is, even if it's a bit more specialist.


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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:21 am 
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@Irisado: The problem is that it doesnt do much area denying because of its very short range, and for it to be any kind of menace it requires a lot of setup, which 1) can be countered without too much difficulty (scouts, large forward formations, etc.), 2) can fail on a simple activation roll and the you just lose your exposed cobra, and 3) has very large chances not to do anything at all because of the low to-hit values.
Nevermind the fact that the eney might not have larger WEs, and then your cobra is a lesser menace than a Zzap gun for 5 times the cost.

@ Glyng: Yes Cobra guns get better in pairs, but for 500pts, it is a very fragile formation, that has little ability to take or control objectives and the worst part of it is that you still need to use them in the same way to get their guns to hurt, which only accentuates the issues I just mentioned...

My biggest issue is that to use the Cobra effectively, you really need to play in un-eldar like fashion, where double-moves + shotting is not only suboptimal but actually bery bad in most situations. You end up doing marches and sustains, not capitalize on your skimmer ability at all... If it was on ork weapon or a guard weapon it could make sense, but then the chassis would be landcrawling and the tank would be much cheaper.

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:18 am 
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I always thought that trying out 45cm range would be the first step. Its the one tank that's just (In my own limited experience) a bad joke compared to ANY of the other SHT's.


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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:39 am 
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LordotMilk wrote:
@Irisado: The problem is that it doesnt do much area denying because of its very short range, and for it to be any kind of menace it requires a lot of setup, which 1) can be countered without too much difficulty (scouts, large forward formations, etc.), 2) can fail on a simple activation roll and the you just lose your exposed cobra, and 3) has very large chances not to do anything at all because of the low to-hit values.


I still don't agree I'm afraid. Yes, it does require quite a bit of set-up, but this is why you use it in conjunction with other formations. Team a pair of them up (as GlynG says one isn't a good idea) with Aspect formations riding in Wave Serpents, and maybe even have titan support, and you've suddenly got yourself quite a threatening flank attack force.

The area denial comes in when your opponent tries to counter attack your assault force, meaning that the short range is much less of a handicap than you think. To use a 40K analogy, they're a bit like D Cannons in the 40K Eldar army, but they move a lot faster, meaning that they are a mobile area denial unit.

I think that you would benefit from trying them out in pairs, over multiple games, and making more use of their mobility to support attacks made by other formations.


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Nevermind the fact that the eney might not have larger WEs, and then your cobra is a lesser menace than a Zzap gun for 5 times the cost.


That's an army selection issue, not a problem with the Cobra's rules. If you don't expect to face that many armies with viable targets for the Cobra, then don't take one. Problem solved.

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:57 pm 
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Well the Cobra's Distortion Cannon has a range of 48" in Wh40k which usually translates to 45cm in Epic. It also has the ability to ignore Void Shields and Power Fields.

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:08 pm 
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Quote:
Team a pair of them up with Aspect formations riding in Wave Serpents, and maybe even have titan support...

And you'll be playing with about 5 activations in your army. :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:05 pm 
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Exactly. Of course 2 cobras, 8 aspects in Wave Serpents and a titan would be a daunting assault force, but thats about 1'800 points for 3 formations, so I should hope so. And still then, you be probably better off with scorpions for the same role.

How many times have you actually fielded two cobras? or even one? I have played 4 games with 2 and at least 10 games with one, and I can say that it is currently not only a bit underpowered when used correctly, but its playability goes against eldar instincts (hit and run mostly).

I sincerely believe my proposals above are no revolution and can make a clearly underplayed and very hard to play model quite a bit more viable and enjoyable.

+15cm range? come on, thats what was given to the Decimator, and for cheaper points thats quite another unit in both real and psychological effects. I am certain it would only increase the enjoyability of the unit for everyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:18 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
And you'll be playing with about 5 activations in your army. :-)


It depends on the points value that you're playing. I play 4000 or 5000 points, not 3000, and this makes a difference.

LordotMilk wrote:
How many times have you actually fielded two cobras? or even one? I have played 4 games with 2 and at least 10 games with one, and I can say that it is currently not only a bit underpowered when used correctly, but its playability goes against eldar instincts (hit and run mostly).


I'm not at all surprised that one hasn't worked at all well. I've only fielded them in pairs, but that's because I saw no advantage in fielding a single Cobra. That's where the Scorpion does have an advantage, in the sense that it's still effective when fielded on its own.

Quote:
I sincerely believe my proposals above are no revolution and can make a clearly underplayed and very hard to play model quite a bit more viable and enjoyable.


My concern with this is that if it were clearly underplayed and very hard to use, why has it not been changed before? Far more experience Epic Eldar players than me have defended the status quo in the past (otherwise its rules would have been changed years ago), so I don't follow how you can draw the conclusion that it's not powerful/effective enough quite so easily.

I should add, so that you're aware, my philosophy is very much one of there's no need to change it, unless there is a major internal/external balance issue, so it's always quite tough to convince me that unit changes are needed, especially in relation to the Eldar, which I have really found to be very dangerous in Epic EA.

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:32 pm 
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Purchasing two of them only makes matters worse, as the undervalue for points is only worsened by the low activation count for points.

Could we have the AC's thoughts on this?

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:41 pm 
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Rug,

How often have you seen a pair of Cobras in a tourney list?

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