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Archived [NetEA]Dark Angels 2.1

 Post subject: Archived [NetEA]Dark Angels 2.1
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:34 pm 
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List superseded by viewtopic.php?f=73&t=28198&p=536151

This will now be the Dark Angel list for the NetEA Project under the guidance of BlackLegion and Myself with Overlord Dobbsy. I have attached a new PDF along with a fancy reference sheet modeled after Dobbsy's.

My main concerns are still SlowFire Plasma but that is up to the big boys, I'll still be hassling them however.

My other issue is that 2 Hunter won't be enough AA Cover but only time and test will tell.

For the Lion and the Emperor!

EDIT: Updated List 11/7/11 NetEA


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DarkAngelsReference.xls [36.5 KiB]
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Dark Angels 2.1.pdf [399.05 KiB]
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Last edited by Angel_of_Caliban on Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:34 am, edited 6 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: AoC's Dark Angels
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:28 pm 
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I think you'll find that normal terminators already include stats for an assault version within those stats as an abstract. I came up against this brick wall with the Space Wolves too, so I'd think you're better off leaving termies as is and forget the headache you'll get trying to push them forward. My 2c.


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 Post subject: Re: AoC's Dark Angels
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:32 pm 
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For Assault Terminators, I think CC2+, but FF-, should suffice. Perhaps add an invulnerable save to represent Storm Shields.

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 Post subject: Re: AoC's Dark Angels
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:36 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
For Assault Terminators, I think CC2+, but FF-, should suffice. Perhaps add an invulnerable save to represent Storm Shields.

I didn't want them to be overly awesome but the Inv Save might be nice.

Matt, I haven't really looked at the Space Puppies list oddly enough ::)

I was trying to change aspects that match DA fluff but also other lists haven't treaded on. I really would like TRC and BL feel on my ideas. Also Hena input as the SM Champion would be nice.

Note: I forgot to mention in the list that all Ravenwing units have scout.


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 Post subject: Re: AoC's Dark Angels
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:13 am 
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All Marine lists designate themselves as the best *blah blah blah*. Same s***, just a different shovel.

It is those that do not place conventional form to their attacks that are most dangerous and therfore should have a review of their CC. Hence you have Khorne Berserkers running around with 2+, and some may argue that Blood Angels could fall into the same review. I do not think a 2+ CC is representative of the DA.

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 Post subject: Re: AoC's Dark Angels
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:28 am 
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Maybe your right Froggy. I just wanted to give them something. Maybe the 2 MW per base will be enough?? With the Inv save??


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 Post subject: Re: AoC's Dark Angels
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:13 am 
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If you give them 2MW as a base, expect their cost to go up. Regardless of whether they have shooting or not, their main goal is to teleport and Charge. Anything that assists in that Charge is going to need a price increase. The negative to FF will definitely assist these to be kept at a lower price (as then they can be clipped).

Inv Save on Terminators is a bad idea IMO. They become very hard to kill. No reason you could not introduce it however.

Just have to have them representative at an Epic level. If you increase with an extra MW attack, hit the FF hard to compensate. I guess E&C had a good example of the balance, however then you have to justify why other marines are not as good.

My preference would be to leave the termies to a later stage and go with what the DA are known for - the Ravenwing. Develop the army with this in mind above all else. Although the Deathwing may be 'known', they are no more unique than any other Terminator squad in any other Codex Chapter known for assaults or otherwise.

If I was to be completly honest, I do not believe DA deserve anything more than the small addition the White Scars had to the normal list. I am not out to discourage or offend, it is just my view. At the end of the day, go with what you are happy with and what makes Epic a game for you to play. If anything, I am guilty of playing my own lists to death. No reason others can't do the same :)

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 Post subject: Re: AoC's Dark Angels
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:15 am 
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2x MW is much more powerful than changing their CC from 3+ to 2+.
Entirely removing their Firefight stat should balance that change.
Giving them an invulnerable save to represent Storm Shields would be pretty minor, and would help compensate for the complete loss of their FF stat.


In any case, I'd probably leave assault terminators for an Imperial Fists list.

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 Post subject: Re: AoC's Dark Angels
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:02 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
2x MW is much more powerful than changing their CC from 3+ to 2+.
Entirely removing their Firefight stat should balance that change.
Giving them an invulnerable save to represent Storm Shields would be pretty minor, and would help compensate for the complete loss of their FF stat.

In any case, I'd probably leave assault terminators for an Imperial Fists list.

For Dorn's Lap Dogs!!! Ha!

So Deathwing Assault Terminator...

CC 2+, FF 0, MW, EA(+1),
OR
CC 3+, FF 0, MW, MW EA(+1)

Inv Save can be added either way. Formation at 400 points, can mix with regular DW Termies. Also how do people feel about the Cyclone Missile Launcher on the DW?

Frogbear, I feel that the main DA thing would be the Deathwing with the Ravenwing a close second. I mean the Double Wing Tactic, I feel this could show the difference of the DA at the Epic level. Also the Deathwing are the supposed to be the best Terminators of the Imperium, even if they have been horribly over shadowed as of late. I mean there the only 1st Company that exclusively uses Tactical Dreadnought Armour.


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 Post subject: Re: AoC's Dark Angels
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:23 am 
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Personally I'd just leave the Termies as everyone else's Termies, mate. It's one less thing to balance and everyone knows it works already. Deathwing Termies don't seem much different to any other chapter's.


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 Post subject: Re: AoC's Dark Angels
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:38 am 
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Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
Frogbear, I feel that the main DA thing would be the Deathwing with the Ravenwing a close second. I mean the Double Wing Tactic, I feel this could show the difference of the DA at the Epic level. Also the Deathwing are the supposed to be the best Terminators of the Imperium, even if they have been horribly over shadowed as of late. I mean there the only 1st Company that exclusively uses Tactical Dreadnought Armour.


If you really wanted to push the envelope, I am sure there are a score of people that could produce fluff that states other Marine chapters are "the best". It's merely what you get from the novels and it is over-rated.

Ravenwing are representative of the horse culture and knights of Caliban. The ravenwing could be presented differently and in greater numbers. The trouble is - what in the Deathwing is so unique that it can be represented at an Epic scale? Greater numbers per squad perhaps?

The DA list would be built around representing the first two chapters as different to any other marine list. As above, greater numbers are the first thing that come to mind (as in units per formation) and thereby more expensive - yet highly effective. All other companies (3rd through 10th) follow strict codex dogma.

Quote:
In any case, I'd probably leave assault terminators for an Imperial Fists list.


It was a shock to me that after years of thinking of Imperial Fists as yellow marines that I would never like, I came to have them as my preferred legion for no other reason than to gain the deep yellow colour when painting them that I have still not been able to achieve effectively. After reading the history and background of the Imp Fists, again, what makes them so special? They are defenders more than anything.

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 Post subject: Re: AoC's Dark Angels
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:48 am 
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Quote:
After reading the history and background of the Imp Fists, again, what makes them so special? They are defenders more than anything.

They are known to deploy a special terminator formation known as the "Titan Hammers" composed exclusively of CC Terminators.

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 Post subject: Re: AoC's Dark Angels
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:13 pm 
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My favourite bit from the other DA list is the Ravenwing formation. It was big enough to be a nasty assault formation, not to expensive and could garrisson which was immense without becoming overpowering.

Yours, an 8 strong scout formation, I think is too nifty and would be very hard to balance, all that scout on such a fast assaulty platform would cause the enemy a lot of problems.
4 bikes (normal), 2 attack bikes and 2 shooty speeders all achieved a very different effect formation wise, but only required 1 new unit (the attack bike) and kept the use of scout to the minimum. And was the correct fluffy size :)

I think you should keep the DA commanders. That is the SC gets Fearless and the other characters swap Invulnerable save for Fearless. They are a neat, characterful change.

EpicUk has concluesively shown that no air cover is a real problem, I would allow 1-2 hunters to compensate.

Your stats have too many variables. Just pick one stat line for one unit, forget about the OR its not needed.

I am al for plasma on tacticals. They have less shots than the devs so it affects them less. Also Devs are very sensitive to price increases as thye are a smaller unit and more likely to buckle under fire.

Tried lots of stuff with the terminators. ultimately they are best left alone. they have the global special rule about becoming fearless and can have a fearless chaplain added. Really thats enough to make them stand out.

Your Areas is a bit too good FF wise :) In fact it is better than a Baneblade! And its still a silly tank :)


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 Post subject: Re: AoC's Dark Angels
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:03 pm 
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Not sure about the LR Ares. It is a pure fan unit and i see no way why Dark Angels should have a special siege vehicle.

About Assault Terminators: Terminators inEpic are a mech regular Terminators and Assault Terminators. In Wh40k they are separate.
Now you want separate stats but Dark Angels in Wh40k are known for have regular and Assault Terminator sin the same squad? :)
So suddenly our Dark Angels are more Codex than the Codex Space Mariens from the Epic rulebook :)

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 Post subject: Re: AoC's Dark Angels
PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:18 am 
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Thanks for the replies. I've been a tad busy with life, so that's why the delayed response. I'm glad to hear from TRC and BL, I really don't want anyone to feel like I'm stepping on anyone's toes, I just wanna see the DA list to be finished or closer to that. =)

The_Real_Chris wrote:
My favourite bit from the other DA list is the Ravenwing formation. It was big enough to be a nasty assault formation, not to expensive and could garrisson which was immense without becoming overpowering.

Yours, an 8 strong scout formation, I think is too nifty and would be very hard to balance, all that scout on such a fast assaulty platform would cause the enemy a lot of problems. 4 bikes (normal), 2 attack bikes and 2 shooty speeders all achieved a very different effect formation wise, but only required 1 new unit (the attack bike) and kept the use of scout to the minimum. And was the correct fluffy size :)

Well I just used the same RW formation in the NetEA 1.1 SM draft document, expect I allowed 6 bikes and any number of Attack Bike swaps instead of the 4 Bikes and 2 Attack Bike fixed formation. I didn't think that was too over the top. I also like seeing the HB Attack Bike too. And how do the RW garrison without adding Scouts?

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I think you should keep the DA commanders. That is the SC gets Fearless and the other characters swap Invulnerable save for Fearless. They are a neat, characterful change.

EpicUk has concluesively shown that no air cover is a real problem, I would allow 1-2 hunters to compensate.

I forgot about that character change, I'm more than happy to see it in the list. And i do agree with the Double Hunter's! =)

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Your stats have too many variables. Just pick one stat line for one unit, forget about the OR its not needed.

I am all for plasma on tacticals. They have less shots than the devs so it affects them less. Also Devs are very sensitive to price increases as they are a smaller unit and more likely to buckle under fire.

The main units that have the OR is Tac's and Dev's which I feel is needed rather than having 2 whole Data faxes for them. And the Mortis was done for the same reason, to save space. More than happy to split up the Dreads if it's an issue. Btw someone with a IA, could you see what are the choices for the Mortis? *Cough BL Cough*

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Tried lots of stuff with the terminators. ultimately they are best left alone. they have the global special rule about becoming fearless and can have a fearless chaplain added. Really that's enough to make them stand out.

BlackLegion wrote:
About Assault Terminators: Terminators in Epic are a mech regular Terminators and Assault Terminators. In Wh40k they are separate.
Now you want separate stats but Dark Angels in Wh40k are known for have regular and Assault Terminator sin the same squad? :)
So suddenly our Dark Angels are more Codex than the Codex Space Marines from the Epic rulebook

I thought the general feeling was that Fearless Termies were lame? Am I wrong? So I dropped that thought and tried to make it fancy-ish. I felt the best way to show there mixed weapons was the split stands. A squad of ten (2 stands)would have a mix, So I thought the easiest way was a mix formation. But we could just make one new DW Profile? Maybe drop one Assault Cannon shot and add an extra attack (MW or Not?) or CC2+. We could also make the formation 6 stands but that might be treading a bit on too large? But then again there are no WE's or Allies so maybe that's ok? Something to fight other WE's with??

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Your Areas is a bit too good FF wise :) In fact it is better than a Baneblade! And its still a silly tank :)

BlackLegion wrote:
Not sure about the LR Ares. It is a pure fan unit and i see no way why Dark Angels should have a special siege vehicle.

I agree its kinda of silly but its there and It was created by the DA, So why not put it in?? I guess we could always put in as a appendix type unit?


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