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Exodite Visions – The Eldar Knights (LONG!)

 Post subject: Exodite Visions – The Eldar Knights (LONG!)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:53 am 
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I am going to make a bold statement and say I want to produce an Exodites supplement (which could possibly be released on its own or as part of a campaign supplement in the style of Raiders). I want to not only design and forum playtest a great armylist, but also put together a full colour printable piece complete with background, stories, unit descriptions with photos, battle photos, etc. I am passionate and dedicated to EpicA and the Exodites and getting this to work. If people will accept me I would like to offer myself up to take on the mantle of Exodites Army Champion (how does one apply??).

I am in the process of collecting a large (7,000+pts) Eldar Exodites army myself at the moment, including plenty of the rare oop models and with nearly everything converted to look the part, often extensively. I intend sometimes to play my own army using the Biel-tann list, with the entire army using the ‘counts as’ rules (and models not taking advantage of using skimmer where it would not be appropriate). It would not do them justice to only ever field them like this though and it would be nice to have a proper rules for them and recent discussions have illustrated it is not just me that wants to, but that there is interest and desire on the forum for an Exodites list to be done properly.

There is less written and more left to the imagination with the Exodites that with nearly any other GW army, meaning more needs to be filled in and discussed, hence the length this gets to. Below is my draft vision for how I think the Eldar Exodites would best be represented, but I would like to hear your thoughts too; your comments and feedback on what I present here and your own ideas and perspectives on the Exodites. If people accept me in the Army Champion role I would intend to bounce lots of ideas around here about the background and what should and shouldn’t be included for at least a few weeks, before looking to pull things together and start writing up a first draft army list. For the moment therefore I am more looking for background and unit idea commentary and suggestions and perhaps some discussion of unit stats or abilities, but leaving the majority of the unit stat-ing and points cost-ing till later.

I have been working on my Exodites project since Christmas. I had wanted to get my ideas, background and models to a more polished and ready state before sharing them with the forum a way down the line, but discussing it with Semajnollissor after the debate in another thread he insisted on wanting things moving now, so I have been forced to play my hand early, as a result the below is put together in a rush and is more messy and WIP than I would have liked.

If you are not already familiar with the Exodites I suggest you might want to have a read of some of the existing background that has appeared before continuing – copies of key bits of which are online here and here (scroll down some).

Background / Key Points and Themes
Strictly GW Models Only
– Moscovian – the creator of the wonderful Raiders supplement – advised me that in order to safely produce a printable public army book one needs to use strictly only GW models in it and none sold by other companies. GW legal will not stand for a supplement mixing their rules, background and IP with models from foreign companies. In the freedom of your own homes you’re all free to do what you want with your armies, but for this we need to stick to official GW models, fortunately this is not as hard as you might think – there are plenty of appropriate models they produce that can be converted for use, as I will illustrate below. This also means I don’t want to use any plastic toy dinosaurs like you might get from a museum or toyshop.
Jungle-worlds – the typical Exodite world is described as having plenty of primordial jungle and vegetation, akin to our planet millions of years ago I imagine, whereby there were tropical rainforests at the poles and no snow – I have read up on it and such an environment with plentiful sources of plant food was necessary for our own dinosaurs to survive and enabled them to evolve to great sizes. In game and unit terms I suggest this jungle setting should be reflected; I believe the Exodite army should be more about close, short and medium range combat and have fewer long range weapons than their CE cousins, as dense scenery would limit the typical usefulness and deployment of such in Exodites army (with the possible exception of the ‘Neuro’ weaponry I propose and discuss below as I don’t intend these to need line of sight).
Knight-suits and Dinosaurs – Eldar Exodites have been presented to us in two different ways in the old and newer background. In White Dwarf 126 we are told they use large Knight-suits to herd dinosaurs and battle their enemies. Five years or so later on - from the time of Titan Legions and the second edition Eldar Codex and all subsequent mentions - talk about Exodite-dinosaur riders herding dinosaurs. In discussions about the Exodites, people sometimes suggest one background should be given priority and the other less so, or be ignored completely, or given separate lists, but I think this is unnecessary and a very bad idea for the Exodites. Both backgrounds have focused on different elements on the Exodites, in time with the models then released - or planned to be released in the case of the dinosaur Exodites – but there is nothing stopping or suggesting that both should not be true and the two elements co-exist together. With so few official Exodite models to ignore or not include half the range in an army would be madness. Including both is the approach I intend to take with the Exodites – the background says their lifestyle and livelihood revolves very much around keeping/herding/living off dinosaurs and I want multiple units in the list to reflect this in different ways, not just one. Knight-suits are generally useful in warfare but I plan there to be some very, very large dinosaurs in the list and the knight-suits might be better able to affect and control these that the smaller dragon-knights could. I want to tweak and update the background a little here and there and to tie the two existing background sources together more, while referencing some of the newer units I intend there to be a little, but I don't intend to change the basic premises or anything major.
Megasaur/Dinosaur Emphasis – the background and way of life of the Exodites resolves around Megasaurs and the later background and models are all about the Exodites riding them to war. I want to greatly expand the selection and types of Megasaurs available to them and make them the visual and army-list focus of the army. I do still want Knight-suits to be in play, but for them to be in smaller numbers as a support for the army, not its core. The majority of armies have some kind of ‘man-in-armoured-walker’ style unit, but Exodites are the only army to have dinosaurs (Squiggoths aren’t close enough to count or to be obvious to a non-gamer what they are IMO) and I think that unique coolness should be made the most of.
Very Large Megasaurs – Where other races employ super-heavy tanks and titans in their armies, I want the Exodites to have access to various types of dinosaurs on these larger scales and there are good models that can be borrowed from other GW systems, as illustrated below. In this article scientists discuss how dinosaurs got so big and quote a study from the 80s calculating that the upper limit for dinosaur size was at least double that of the largest then known dinosaur; the Brachiosaurus. Wikipedia tells me this would translate to over 26 metres and 180 tonnes. And that’s just human science and dinosaurs, advanced alien science and selective breeding over many millennia could well have got them so big. The current largest Exodite Dinosaur model is the Carnosaur/T-Rex, in real-life herbaceous dinosaurs of much greater dinosaurs were plentiful and I want that here too. Background-wise I would suggest very large dinosaurs could be considered a status symbol and that they could have their uses for transport and would be very deadly and imposing in warfare.
No borrowed Craftworld Units - I want to do the Exodites as best as they can be and give their concept the justice it deserves. All the sorts of Eldar came from the same pre-Fall civilisation, before going off their very separate ways. Craftworld Eldar and Dark Eldar share no units or technology, their armies are separate and individually distinctive. I want the same to apply to Exodites. They should be a proper separate list, not a limited Craftworld Eldar alt-list with some dinosaurs tagged on., nor an Exodites list that regulalry borrows Craftworld units or kit. The Exodites regard their Craftworld cousins with suspicion and they see them as dangerously close to the ways and mistakes of old. I will let them share the odd little thing but do it in their own way; e.g. older-style rounded scatter lasers, but mounted not on an anti-grav platform but on the back of a dinosaur. Also Bright Lances and probably Eldar Missile Launchers, though again the Exodite ones will look a bit different from the normal Craftworld Eldar ones. It would also be nice and characterful if we give them some new styles and area of weapons technology of their own, which they could have developed / maintained from the pre-Fall days.
Speed and Terrain - Exodites should be slower than other Eldar armies, both in terms of maximum and average speed, however everything in the army would either have walker or not need it and so they should be good at moving through terrain.
No close combat Eldar Exodite foot-sloggers: – this could be a contentious thought of mine. Other Exodite lists I have seen have invented specialised Exodite infantry along the lines of warrior ninjas or wood elf war-dancers. I considered this, but my conclusion after a lot of thought and musing on the reality of life in dense jungles, with risk of predation by innumerable dinosaur killing machines, was that one surely would not really choose to deliberately try engaging dangerous predators with that many teeth and claws in close-combat fighting, even if one is has as quick reflexes as an Eldar. I am not saying that Exodites always avoid or are bad at close-combat, on the contrary I imagine them as better and more comfortable at it than Craftworld Eldar, I just don’t think they would chose it as a main mode of attack or specialise in it rather than trying to play to the advantage of having guns and being able to shoot from a bit of a distance. Foot Exodites in my opinion should primarily be aimed at being okayish, but not amazing, shooting/FF units, or at least they should not have a foot Eldar Exodite unit type that specialises in close combat. The Dragon Knights and Knight-suits use these to give them some advantage and protection and are more able and willing to close up against dinosaurs. This proposal also makes Exodites distinct again from the other sorts of Eldar.
Exodites Character – Compared to the aloof, changeable arrogance of the Craftworld Eldar and the wilful malice and joy in slaughter of their Dark Kin, the Exodites are rather more down to earth and practical characters, more grim and sombre, but also very loyal to each other and their tribe. The Pre-fall Eldar had “long outgrown the need for labour or simple manual agricultureâ€Â


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 Post subject: Exodite Visions – The Eldar Knights (LONG!)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:54 am 
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Technology / Weaponry
Lasers – where CE use shuriken weapons and DE use splinter weapons Exodites go in for laser weaponry as standard. Every single one of the existing dinosaur-rider Exodites is armed with a laser weapon: the Dragon Knights and Pterradon Riders are armed with Laser Lances (the same lance close combat weapons carried by Shining Spears), one Carnosaur-rider carries a Laser Lance, the other a larger shooting weapon, it is definitely a shooting weapon – it has a sight and stock - and looks like a perfect match for being a Bright Lance. The Stegosaur/Triceratops model is armed with a flipping massive twin-linked laser cannon on a rotating platform on its back. One good thing with lasers is that, unlike shuriken or splinter guns, they could presumably have adjustable less powerful settings, allowing the Exodites to use them to herd, frighten off and stun dinosaurs without killing them. Though the largest dinosaurs might have such a large mass and metabolism that perhaps full power could or would normally be used.
No anti-grav skimmers or flyers – the existing background describes the Exodites using Megadons and Pterradons for transport and to carry objects and weaponry on their backs. Psycho-plastics and the like are also rare on Exodite worlds. Skimmers and flyers are really not very practical in a densely vegetated jungle environment – difficult terrain tests would be a swift killer for skimmers in EpicA game terms – and they do not suit the ethos of a mostly nomadic culture, having dinosaurs fulfil these roles instead is much more characterful and appropriate. It also makes them distinctive and different from the other sorts of Eldar, a good thing in my book. They do have Pterradon Rider, but they should be skimmers and are no way fast enough to be a flyer in EpicA terms.
Neuro Weaponry – I would like to propose this as an interesting use and expansion of existing background, that I think would be appropriate here. Unlike the wraithbone core of the Craftworld we can see the Exodites World Spirit – the Exodites version of this, a great psychic conductor, power-grid and store – on the battlefield. The background talks about “standing stones are made from psychically interactive crystal...which carry power throughout the entire planet and focus the energy of the world.â€Â


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 Post subject: Exodite Visions – The Eldar Knights (LONG!)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:56 am 
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Neuro-Cannon - dinosaur pulled cart with Neuro-Cannon support weapon. The idea for this was to make it look weird and exotic and yet feasible. It's got a ball of crystal, which will be painted us like a jewel, possibly with crackling energy on it, which is then surrounded by loops of gold, which channel or focus the psychic energies.


Megadon – large, probably super-heavy, dinosaur. These could perhaps be armed with different weapon variants on the rotating weapon platforms; a larger version of the gun from the Stegadon would fit the part well. The one below carries a larger version of the Neuro-Cannon; a Neuro-Annihilator. Again the core of this weapon is meant to be and will be painted us as, one massive great big crystal, ringed in gold (though without gaps between the two this time, perhaps allowing this one to be more powerful / longer ranged).


Tyrannosaurus – bit larger version of the Carnosaur, using the Warmaster model instead. Could be a good mount for the commander / supreme commander of the army perhaps? Also included in the photo are some other possible dinosaur models we could use, a (sadly OOP) WM Greater Crested Stegadon and perhaps a Warhammer Dark Elf Cold One, though I’m less sure about using this one. Also a Warhammer Terradon could make a good gigantic Pterradon, the new style model looks particularly dinosaur-like IMO.

Knight-Suits - Historically there are three different types; the Fire Gale, the Bright Stallion and the Towering Destroyer. Stats were given in the Swordsword book, however these are generally regarded as a bit unbalanced and we can always rewrite them. Fire Gales 1-3 and 5 are armed with a single weapon, most often a triangular gun with three barrels on the end. Fire Gale 4 is clearly of a different design and is armed with two smaller guns on each arm, pointed directly skywards and with two banks of missiles on its shoulders. I propose that this be made a different unit type to the others - namely an anti-aircraft knight.
I’ll need to come back to the Knight-suits properly later to say any more however, as I can’t find where my copy of White Dwarf 126 has got to offhand, so I’m unable to read over and refresh myself with their original rules.

Razordons – using the Warhammer model as a base (though not going near their silly cartoony ability to shoot their spikes off at the enemy). Could call these by a different, more real life dinosaurish name. I bought mine with the intention to proxy model them as Revenant Titans, but here that holds no wait and we arm or use them in any way we like.


Titanosaurus – that is actually the name of the largest sorts of actual real life dinosaur, I’ve not made it up. Possibly contentiously big, but I see no reason why Exodites shouldn’t have a dinosaur as big as this (see above under ‘Very Large Dinosaurs’). Modelwise I plan to model make mine out of an old Warhammer Stegadon, with the head and horns from a newer plastic Stegadon instead as this looks better. It will have a structure and various guns on it’s back, possibly all mounted on a large rotating platform as in the style of the Triceratops model, possibly not.

Spacecraft – not too sure what to do with these, whether to disallow them any, let them use Craftworld and or Corsair ships, or whether they could have small numbers of ships of their own design. If any of you are BFG players, has there ever been any mention of Exodites or Exodites ships in BFG, even just a throwaway line? If not do people think they should be allowed Corsair/Craftworld ships, or should they just have to make do without?

Last quick couple of aesthetic ideas, menhirs modelled as a Wraithgate:

And I reckon this high elf part could make an excellent symbol / icon for the army, with imagery of a dragon encircling a world, new dawn, etc:


Thanks for reading this far, I worry this might be too excessively long a post but I look forward to hearing what you guys think :smile:





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 Post subject: Exodite Visions – The Eldar Knights (LONG!)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:43 am 
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There's a lot to respond to, but I have to say while a lot of my ideas overlap yours, there are several differences.

First, I tend to think of Exodites as being more than just dino-herders/alien-dances-with-wolves types. Extrapolating from Eldar as a whole, I figure there are several ways an exodite could live and still be Exodity:
1) Herd follower - generally what you have described
2) Farmer - think environmentally-conscious homesteaders
3) Loners - think mountain men or religious hermits
4) Monks - almost craftworld-pathlike, but more strict and without an end
All of these roles would present an Eldar with many challenges that require back-breaking labor to eek out an existence.

Also, there are other issues to address, like:
How are the world stones guarded? How are Craftworld rangers greeted/assimilated? Who watches the webway gates against Dark Kin or Daemon incursion? What protects the planet from space-born invasions (which have to constitute the most common form of planetary invasion)? How do the exodites build and maintain their war engines and other tools of war?

This is how I imagined it would be:

On each maiden world there would be several clans of herd followers which would constitute a majority of the population (85%?).

In addition, there would be a scattering of small, individual farmsteads, which would be single family unit affairs that blend in to the background wilderness, representing a significantly smaller portion of the population (10%).

At strategic locations, such as where major webway gates and world stone locations, there would be monasteries, not necessarily to guard them like a fortress, but more to monitor their activity. The seer-monks here would be maybe 1% of the population.

Another 1%, scattered over the entire world, would be the loners - living the life of ascetics, communing with the wilderness (which aren't limited to just jungles in my mind - think Yosemite Nat'l Park: soaring mountains, raging cataphracts, vast expanses of glaciers and sand - basically the best photos from the history of Nat'l Geographic magazine)

The remaining population would be non-exodite Eldar, like greencard holders; the Craftworld outcasts, Corsair bands, maybe even some of the Dark Kin looking for redemption (or trouble). These Eldar might eventually be absorbed into Exodite clans, but most likely they'll just move on.

So, what does all that have to do with anything?

Well, mainly that it would be okay to have a bit more variety in the list instead of just another rider on a slightly bigger dino. As long as there's a logic behind it, I think people will come around. If you don't mind, I'll be posting a full outline of my ideas (backgrounds, stats, army list) in a separate thread.


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 Post subject: Exodite Visions – The Eldar Knights (LONG!)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:53 am 
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I think it's great that you want to do something for the Exodites. The Eldar are my favorite race and it would be cool if they were fully represented.

Too bad no one but the lucky and rich can get a hold of the models though.

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 Post subject: Exodite Visions – The Eldar Knights (LONG!)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:14 pm 
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You mention good points Semajnollissor and I go along with (or would consider going along with) a number of the differences you mention in yours. For lack of space and time I focused mostly on the dinosaur herding elements above, but I entirely agree there would be other sorts of Exodite lifestyle and definitely need for engineer types / methods to build their tech - the newer background talks about them being nomadic, but they must surely have permanent settlements too, where such things would seem more likely to be done than on the move. The existing background discusses the Royal Circle of the planet's king and this would seem likely IMO to have a large settlement / city around it along with appropriate defences / fortifications / guards. Personally I imagine the majority of Exodites worlds to be mostly verdant jungle - and very high quantitites of easily consumable vegetation are necesary for dinosaurs to live and evolve bigger, which could support this - but there would be plains, mountains and other environments too of course.

My approach generally is to focus more on the dinosaur and mounted elements of the army and to keep less foot infantry types. I also thought that shooting seemed more logical for foot-infantry them that close combat, but I am not necessarily wedded entirely to this and could be persuaded to add in another unit or units of close-combat or other sorts of foot-infantry. What do other people think?

One other thing to mention is that I have listed plenty of possible dinosaur types that could be easily GW proxied and used in the list, but I do not necessarily intend that all of these should make it into the final list / suggested model designs. I'm just throwing in all the ideas I have at the moment and we could see which seem best.

They should have some form of planetary defence too. I'm not that keen on them having their own fleet (unless there is existing mention of them somewhere) but they could have or call for help from Corsair or Craftworld ships when in trouble. These could be fickle and not choose or be able to help though and I would prefer the Exodites to have their own defences too really. I've just had a newer thought on this now; I imagine they'd just need defensive space assets - as they should be able to use the webway for any trade or travel needs to other Exodites Worlds / elsewhere - in that case could they have some form of orbiting defences or space stations? Perhaps automated ones?  They could be given flowerly Eldar names and background and perhaps be ancient flocks of space weapons / defences seeded by the Exodites in orbit around the worlds they colonised.

I quite agree many Exodite Worlds could well have some visiting or resident Outcasts, Corsairs etc. I just feel these are not always necessarily present nor in enough numbers for them to reasonably to be overtly reflected in the rules as unit types in an Exodites army (bar possible spacecraft). I think it is more characterful and appropriate for the unit types in a tournament army list reflect Exodites only, though there should be mentions in the background and flavour text for units like the Warriors and Hunters that these can also always represent Corsairs/Outcasts/Craftworlders who've joined their armies and fight amongst them. Really on an epic scale there's not any difference between Exodite Hunters which I propose and Craftworld Rangers and IMO not enough difference between Exodite Warriors as I propse them and Corsairs for the list to justify new rules or a Corsair specific unit.

One of the things I like about EpicA compared to SM2/TL is that allies are not part of the standard tournament lists, but left for friendly games / scenarios. There must be plenty of Imperial worlds with similar minority populations of Space Marines in Chapter Monastries, Sisters of Battle in Shrines, Adeptus Mechanicus in Forge Settlements, etc - but these are considered separately with lists and rules of their own and not added in as unit options in the standard Imperial Guard list and I feel the same should be true here for a standard Exodites list.

I'm interested to see your perspective and ideas in more detail and Exodites should be a collaborative publically developed project, go ahead and post up your thoughts Semajnollissor. That said I am a little concerned about the possibility that two Exodites lists could potentially end up being developed in parallel and the limited playtesting interest anyway being dilluted and confused.  

Malakai: Too bad no one but the lucky and rich can get a hold of the models though.
That's where converting and how-tos in a modelling section would come in. While not as aesthetically pleasing as the sleek Eldar ones, Warmaster Cold One + plastic Vyper Crewman + some kind of lance + harlequin head = a good and easily makeable Dragon Knight proxy. I've also seen a conversion where they were made from plastic epic Steeds of Slaanesh. Warmaster Terradon riders with a similar Vyper modelled rider look good as Pterradon riders and frankly the Pterradon looks a lot better this way than the original did and the wings can be bent into shape for variety in the units. Possibly Warmaster Carnosaurs could be the basis for converting Carnosaur riders, though personally I prefer the idea of having the two types and sizes. No idea on converting Stegadon ones from any available GW bits, as again the Warmaster ones are better representing larger super-heavy dinosaurs in my opinion. Magister Millitum do sell a wide range of 10mm dinosaurs, which I've not seen in real life, but could be used, another company who I forget makes 6mm models riding an alien style dinosaur and perhaps there are other companies which make dinosaurs models or plastic toy dinosaurs on a scale and detail level that could be used? If people take the time and effort to convert epic Dark Eldar or Necrons as seen in Raiders, then Exodites should not be impossible to make and look good from available models.

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 Post subject: Exodite Visions – The Eldar Knights (LONG!)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:36 pm 
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That is quite an impressive start. I will need to finish reading it later but it is a solid beginning at least  :D

To be honest I was hoping for two distinct exodite lists, one focused more on the dinosaurs and one more focused on the Knights (similar to the AdMech knightworld lists). Sadly I don't have nearly the ground work put down yet that you do, so if I start writing up a knight world list it will be a few months out at least. That and I still need to track down a copy of WD 126 :whistle:

Now whether they deserve to be two seperate lists, or one list that is flexible enough to accomidate both, is another topic for debate. However if we can figure out a solid stat line and point costs for the knights that would seem to be most of the heavy lifting required for a knight world list.


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 Post subject: Exodite Visions – The Eldar Knights (LONG!)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:47 pm 
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Spacecraft – not too sure what to do with these, whether to disallow them any, let them use Craftworld and or Corsair ships, or whether they could have small numbers of ships of their own design. If any of you are BFG players, has there ever been any mention of Exodites or Exodites ships in BFG, even just a throwaway line? If not do people think they should be allowed Corsair/Craftworld ships, or should they just have to make do without?

They won't have a Space fleet but maybe they can throw out requests in most dire circumstances?

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 Post subject: Exodite Visions – The Eldar Knights (LONG!)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:54 pm 
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You should just make molds of your army.  :devil:

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 Post subject: Exodite Visions – The Eldar Knights (LONG!)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:19 pm 
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I like all i see here :) Kepp up the good work :)

Look at this for inspitation (yes i`m serious :) )
http://www.dinoriders.com/


Because Exodite Clans wage war/feuds on each other i would suggest close-combat troops too.




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 Post subject: Exodite Visions – The Eldar Knights (LONG!)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:19 pm 
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My thinking with regards to the spacecraft issue is to take the easy way out.

Either have them use what the craftworlds use, or have them use the BFG Corsair ships.

I am partial to using the Corsair ships for the following reasons:
1) they are cool models that are readily available
2) fluff-wise, corsairs are generally more likely to be near any given point in the galaxy than a craftworld and it's fleets.
3) Corsairs probably don't start out life as Corsairs, they have to be the burnouts and dropout of some Eldar population source - this could just as easily be an exodite world as a craftworld.
4) Per number 3 and the background, Eldar burnouts and dropouts rarely cut off ties with their homes 100%, so ecting them to come to the planet's aid is akin to having rnagers in a craftworld army.
5) Corsairs must have some safe harbor to operate from. As far as I'm concerned, an Exodite world is just as good as a Haven space station.
EDIT: 6) No one else uses them, and the likelihood of having a corsair army in E:A is excedingly low

From a realist POV, they are required to have planetary defense fleet at the very least. If they didn't, they wouldn't stand a chance against tyranids hive fleets, ork waaaghs, tau expeditions, or imperial crusades. The strategic disadvantage they would be under would be too much for it to be believable (in my opinion).





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 Post subject: Exodite Visions – The Eldar Knights (LONG!)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:51 pm 
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Very nice models, GlynG.

I'll have to go back and read everything in detail, but after a quick skim...

Background/Design Philosophy - I think the Exodites concept dates back to the whole "40K is WHFB in the far future" days.  Imperial nobility/men at arms- space marines/IG, elves - eldar, dwarves - squats, etc..  In keeping with that I always thought of the exodites as sort of the Wood Elves of 40K.  That puts them someplace between the Eldar and Dark Eldar.  They are more feral/fae than the craftworlds and don't follow paths but they are not fallen.

The dinos and knights are representative of the large number of animal and nature spirit allies of the wood elves - eagle riders, glade riders, dryads, treants, etc..

However, the Exodites also diverge from wood elves in that they are described as living on grassland planets.  That puts their "herding" agricultural style more into a Plains Native American style (Apache, Sioux, Comanche, etc.) or a nomadic Mongol style.  Both were mostly nomadic but with semi-settled groups and I think both of those cultures have bits that could be pulled for Exodites.  Just off the top of my head, the idea of "counting coup" is pretty darn Eldar-ish, imho (What is more fae than stopping in the middle of a pitched battle to participate in a game that proves your skill and bravery?).

Overall, I think both GlynG's and Semaj's ideas are excellent and in keeping with all of that.  I just thought it might add some additional ways of thinking about it.

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 Post subject: Exodite Visions – The Eldar Knights (LONG!)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:06 pm 
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GlynG,

Wow!  Lots to digest but I will throw out some information, concerns, and requests.  First though great job on the beginning of your project.  I am ALWAYS for printing a supplement ang believe that as long as it is well produced, people will buy them.  You are off to a great start and if you can make good on these lofty goals you are in for a successful publication.  I am pretty spread out on several different projects and tournaments, but I will assist wherever possible.

My number one suggestion is to find like minded people like Semajnollissor who are willing to dedicate some time and energy over the long run to this.  You will find that your project will be much easier to maintain if you have several motivated people who can feed off each other's energy and ideas.

Remember that I didn't create Raiders; I just organized it. FIFTY people created Raiders.  At the core of the effort was Corey (Necron Champ), Ben (Evil & Chaos), and I.  Then we had Scarik and Xisor who helped me develop the Dark Eldar list.  Then all the modelers, the artists, the scenario writers, the editors (thanks, CHROMA!!), and so on.

Also remember that Raiders took about 15 months to create.  My wife was quite perturbed with me for most of the time.  We had people who backed out of their commitments, others that joined very late in the game, lots of arguments over deadlines and creative ideas alike.  In the last two months there were two people doing 90% of the remaining work.  Everyone else either ducked or just had nothing left to do.  But enough about Raiders...

My second suggestion is start tinkering with who might be going up against the Exodites (this is Epic after all).  My first thought would be the Catachans (contact Nealhunt).  Some Ork variant would be another.  Find out who you WANT, then see if they are interested.  Get a solid commitment from them because once you move onto the next step, a member of your team quitting can be disasterous.  Remember the Army Champs involved don't necessarily have to do a lot of work, they just need to be solidly behind the effort and need to be consulted with.  Regardless of their involvement, you want them to have as much time to prep things from their end: army list testing, modeling pics, etc.

Once you establish who is embroidled in this conflict, it is time to generate a story.  Come to an agreement on the general plot, work up an outline, and make sure all the champs like it.  Then start filling in the details.  The story IMO is key because it helps keep the project focused.  From the story you get a better feel for how the armies will come together, how the units interact, ideas for artwork (key!!) and concepts for scenarios.  How many different players are involved in this?  Two?  Three?  Four?  Are you going to be dealing with alliances?  Three way conflicts?  Is this an interplanetary war or a localized conflict?  Armageddon's story had the IG and SMs working together against the Orks but there were also traitor Guard there as well.  Swordwind had a staggered conflict and Raiders had a giant cluster-f going on as the Necrons intruded into a fight between the Dark Eldar and the Imperium.  Whatever your storyline (and it should be no shocker that it will probably change eight times between now and completion) don't delay or ignore this area or you'll be sorry.

You may be tempted to just have this as a single army list.  If you want it in print though, ask yourself how many people would want the book for just the Exodites?  You'll quickly realize that other army lists are needed for this to make it to the press.

I think your modeling section will be INCREDIBLY important, but I really can't tell you anything that you don't already know.  You've hit all the main restrictions upfront (all GW, no mixing IP, etc.).  Just take a LOT of pictures - more than you think you will need.  Take notes along the way.

I think that since you are going to have the Exodite modeling section, you may want to work on a Knight section as well for people who cannot get a hold of those models.  If you make a commitment to show how to convert the entire army list, then you should feel comfortable putting the Exodites and the Knights in the same list.  People who want to field the Knights outside of the Exodite list can always just draw it out of your list.

Psychogenetic manipulation: Genetic engineering sounds so human. :;):   Exodites may be the least technologically centered splinter of Eldar, but are still incredibly psychic creatures.  So why not capitalize on that?  The CW Eldar sing Wraithbone into existence from the Warp.  The Dark Eldar have their dark occultic practices that allow them to do some gruesome but clever acts.  The Exodites could have honed their skills into psychogenetic manipulation where dinosaurs could be bred to their design and trees could be slowly altered to bend and grow as they desire.  You can also tie this into the World Spirit theme and into their control of the dinos. It may be that the Exodite who genetically manipulated the Dino has a distinctive tie to that creature that allows them operate as a team.  It also keeps the need for the Knights since Dinos may be born wild and raw (thus require herding), and each one has to be manipulated from birth.  This is all sounding somewhat Tolkien-esque but the Exodites are as close to Elves as you are going to get in the 40K universe so IMO that is okay.

Background meets the army list:
I disagree that you should eliminate entirely the existence of already used Eldar units, although my suggestions are extremely limited.
I certainly see Wraithgates still being a part of the Exodite lifestyle.  There are simply not enough Exodites to be able to but up a substantial fighting force if their planet was to be invaded.  I can easily see combat pacts being part of all Exodite worlds.  Besides, Swordwind mentions the use of gates on Exodite worlds.

Rangers - Rangers fall under the Path of the Outcast as from Swordwind and it mentions them in the text:
The Path of the Outcast
Sometimes the rigid constraints of the Eldar path are
intolerable even for an Eldar to bear; such individuals
leave their craftworlds and become known as Outcasts.
Many Eldar spend years or decades as Outcasts before
they return to the Eldar path. Outcasts must bear the
terrible burden of their heightened Eldar
consciousness without the protection of the Eldar
path. Set free within the universe they are dangerously
vulnerable. Only Eldar of especially strong character
can survive for long as Outcasts. After years of
adventure and wandering, or sailing the seas of space
aboard the pirate fleets, most Eldar eventually return
to the sanctuary of the Eldar path.
There are many kinds and degrees of Outcast, such as
the wandering Rangers and the roguish Pirates. They
leave their craftworlds and live elsewhere, often
wandering the galaxy and visiting the worlds of men or
the Exodites. They are not welcome aboard craftworlds
except briefly, for their minds are dangerously
unbounded and attract predators from the psychic
realms of the Warp. Outcasts are also disruptive in
another sense, for their presence can distract the
young and inexperienced from the Eldar path by their
romantic tales of travel and freedom.


Rangers are mentioned, but you may also want to consider creating one or two other Outcast units.  These Outcasts could have brought technology from the Craftworlds with them.  The War Walkers are piloted by Guardians, but perhaps there is room for other types of vehicles that are Outcast-operated.  Not a lot, just something.  If there was a place for the Outcasts to exist in an Eldar list, it would be with the Exodites.  Food for thought.

Spacecraft - Corsairs strike me as the best option.  Fluff could be written that there is a loose agreement between the Corsair crews and the Exodites for mutual support.  It doesn't have to be the focus of the story or the army and I think this loose relationship could easily be accepted by fans.

I'm not sure if you can/want to do anything with this, but the description came up in the Void Spinner section and I thought it was interesting enough to post it, if for no other reason than to show the close ties that Biel-tan may have with Exodites.
To the minds of most Eldar, such methods were meant to
create life – to shape worlds anew fit for the Eldar – not
destroy it, and to such Eldar the Void Spinners are a thing
of revulsion. To the Eldar of Biel-Tan, however, the
destruction of their enemies is just the start, and after a
successful campaign scores of Void Spinners are
employed in scouring clean all the dirty remnants of Men,
Orks or whatever other filthy race has tainted the world in
the years since the Eldar’s Fall.  With such cleansing
complete, the Eldar continue to restore the world,
seeding new Exodite worlds as they continue their
ultimately futile struggle to restore the lost Eldar Empire.

Final thought
You must back up everything twice!  We had TWO computer failures that wiped out a lot of material we could never get back.  Make this the utmost priority.  There is nothing quite like watching something you created just vanish before your eyes, never to return.

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 Post subject: Exodite Visions – The Eldar Knights (LONG!)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:24 pm 
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Very interesting and great work so far. I've been thinking about making an Exodite army or a long time so I'll be following this thread with much interest. :)

A few random thoughts on model/unit design:

There's a lot of great model ideas and I really like your use of the Warmaster Lizardmen range. I realize that an Exodite army, like the Dark Eldar army is aimed at the enthusiastic modeller/collector. However if I may offer a bit of advice that may help make the list more commonly used, I'd try to use currently available bits whenever possible. For example using a rare OOP scatterlaser when you might use a weapon from the current Eldar weapon platforms, or using Harlequin heads for the infantry, when perhaps a Howling Banshee head could be used just as well. Tiny details I know. Of course it is your army and you should go for whatever you think looks cool. Bear in mind though, that your army (especially if used for a printed supplement) will aquire a certain mark of authority in regards to what is the "proper" way to model the army. If you want to make an army that seems feasible to a larger percentage of the community, simplicity and availability is the way to go. When somebody reads the supplement and go "Oh, those parts aren't that hard to get hold of, and even I may be able to pull off that conversion", I think there's a much greater chance that the list will be commonly used.

That said, you should definitely try to build this army to the best of your ability. There's lots of great ideas already. All I'm asking is that you consider werther using an obscure component is strictly necessary or if a commonly available bit may do the same job just as well :)

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 Post subject: Exodite Visions – The Eldar Knights (LONG!)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:27 pm 
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Quote: (Moscovian @ 27 Mar. 2009, 16:06 )

My second suggestion is start tinkering with who might be going up against the Exodites (this is Epic after all).  My first thought would be the Catachans (contact Nealhunt).  Some Ork variant would be another.  Find out who you WANT, then see if they are interested.  Get a solid commitment from them because once you move onto the next step, a member of your team quitting can be disasterous.  Remember the Army Champs involved don't necessarily have to do a lot of work, they just need to be solidly behind the effort and need to be consulted with.  Regardless of their involvement, you want them to have as much time to prep things from their end: army list testing, modeling pics, etc.

Catachans, Blood Axes and Exodites might make an interesting mix I think. Didn't neal used to tinker with a Blood Axe list a while ago too?




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