Air Support |
|
Legion 4
|
Post subject: Air Support  Posted: Thu May 15, 2003 5:04 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
 |
 |
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA
|
Himmler is in that "club" too!  ?I saw on the History Channel that a block of Stalingrad is kept as it was during the war and there is an open air Tank Museum with AFVs that fought there. ?And I believe it's called Volgagrad, now, and Leningrad is back to St. Petersburg. ?A Russian girl named Olga told me that. ?And Max I sent you an e-mail about the question you asked me yesterday on PM. ?I didn't want to think I was rude and didn't answer you... 
_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
|
|
| Top |
|
 |
|
primarch
|
Post subject: Air Support Posted: Fri May 16, 2003 1:27 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
 |
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
|
|
Hi!
You are correct Legion4, the names of many Russian cities reverted to their original Czarist names after the Communist government fell. Leningrad is St. Petersberg, Stalingrad is Volgagrad. There are perhaps others.
Its easy to forget Stalingrad with all the modern movies on D-Day, Pearl Harbor and other more "glamerous" battles. But, the German defeat in Stalingrad is, by some accounts, the turning point of WWII.
A saying attributed to the Russians "before Stalingrad we had nothing but defeat, after Stalingrad we had nothing but victory." There is a lot of truth in that statement.
Primarch
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Tas
|
Post subject: Air Support Posted: Fri May 16, 2003 3:39 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
 |
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:01 am
Posts: 7823
Location: Sydney, NSW
|
| Quote (Tas @ 15 2003 May,14:34) | | [It] "is necessary to take such measures that, when they [the citizens] believe no longer, it may be possible to make them believe by force" |
It was our friend Machiavelli again. Sorry for not being clear 
I was scheduled to get to Russia last year, but it all fell through. Real pity, we were going to St.P, Moscow and Volgagrad. There is an awesome tank museum outside of Moscow as well.
I totally agree with you on Stalingrad. ?It was the turning point, although the Russians paid an exceptionally high cost to do it. And not all their casualties were from Axis bullets either...
There have been some good movies recently about S'grad. Notably "Enemy at the Gates" about the sniper duel (which incidentally is believed to be totally fictional and made up my the Soviets as a Psyop campaign) and the early 90s German made movie "Stalingrad." I highly recommend both
L4- Olga isnt one of one of Kitty's cousins from Europe is she by any chance? 
_________________
Tas
My General blog: http://tasmancave.blogspot.com/
My VSF Blog: http://pauljamesog.blogspot.com/
My ECW Blog: http://declaresir.blogspot.com/
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Legion 4
|
Post subject: Air Support Posted: Fri May 16, 2003 7:11 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
|
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA
|
The book and Movie - "Enemy at the Gates" are all about Stalingrad ... definitely worth a look. ?Yes, the History Channel has a tendancy to show a lot of Pearl Harbor and Normandy.?Russia won WWII, it cost them 20 million dead, and 70 % of all German casualties occurred on the Eastern Front. ?Not to mention, they rolled the Japanese up in China in less than a week ... ? ? ?Valhallens anyone ... ? Tas, I'll have to send your post to be decoded ... damn MSN ... ?
_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
the_fifth_horseman
|
Post subject: Air Support Posted: Fri May 16, 2003 3:07 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2003 12:35 pm
Posts: 1259
|
|
+++Legion, if you don't know the meaning of fear, then what is this supposed to mean:+++
+++PLAYBACK OF VOX RECORD INITIATED+++
+++PROCEED+++
Legion 4
Posted: 13 2003 May,17:01 Quote
Stop !!! You're scaring ME !!!
|
+++END OF RECORD+++
+++Huh?+++
_________________ The Fifth Horseman. Quality over quantity.  Realm of the Horseman ? ? The mirror site.
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Legion 4
|
Post subject: Air Support Posted: Fri May 16, 2003 4:39 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
|
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Tas
|
Post subject: Air Support Posted: Sat May 17, 2003 12:12 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
|
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:01 am
Posts: 7823
Location: Sydney, NSW
|
| Quote (Legion 4 @ 17 2003 May,01:39) | | the only things that scare me are females |
Well you aren't made of stone
_________________
Tas
My General blog: http://tasmancave.blogspot.com/
My VSF Blog: http://pauljamesog.blogspot.com/
My ECW Blog: http://declaresir.blogspot.com/
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Legion 4
|
Post subject: Air Support Posted: Sat May 17, 2003 4:34 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
|
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA
|
I guess not, but sometimes it would make things easier,  I'm awaiting decoding but I think his wife is using the P.C. ... 
_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Legion 4
|
Post subject: Air Support Posted: Sun May 18, 2003 5:08 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
|
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA
|
Decoding Complete ... 5 Horse - I'll deny everything, it worked for Baghdad Bob and Al-Jazzira ? !!! ? Tas - I was only furthering East-West relationships with Olga, Machiavelli would have approved !!!
_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
centurion
|
Post subject: Air Support Posted: Sun May 18, 2003 10:24 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
 |
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:44 pm
Posts: 729
Location: San Antonio, Texas
|
|
I'll agree Stalingrad was a major battle, but it was not the turning point, Manstein's operations after Stalingrad led to a sort of stalemate. Kursk proved the end for the Germans, before they still held the intiative afterwards the were on the defensive.
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Tas
|
Post subject: Air Support Posted: Sun May 18, 2003 2:15 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
|
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:01 am
Posts: 7823
Location: Sydney, NSW
|
| Quote (centurion @ 18 2003 May,19:24) | | I'll agree Stalingrad was a major battle, but it was not ?the turning point |
Your comments on subsequent operations are quite correct. Yes after OP ZITADELL the Germans lost the Strategic initiative never to regain it, but Stalingrad was the Turning Point from an overall perpective beacause it showed the Russians and indeed the World that the Germans could be defeated in detail.
Other studies have discussed the battle in terms of losses that if used elsewhere would have had a decisive effect on the campaign
Ultimately IMHO Stalingrad provided the morale boost needed to keep going
_________________
Tas
My General blog: http://tasmancave.blogspot.com/
My VSF Blog: http://pauljamesog.blogspot.com/
My ECW Blog: http://declaresir.blogspot.com/
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Legion 4
|
Post subject: Air Support Posted: Sun May 18, 2003 4:49 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
|
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA
|
Kursk operations were launched late, it had little chance of succeeding and like, the Bulge in the West, it chewed up troops and equipment that could have been used better elsewhere. Much like what will happen to Chaos and their Allies in the EoT campaign ...  !!!
_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Chris
|
Post subject: Air Support Posted: Sun May 18, 2003 5:05 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
 |
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2003 6:42 pm
Posts: 2412
|
|
But before the Germans got to Stalingrad, they were on there way to Kiev. If they had gone to Kiev, they would have won the war, but they decieded to head to Stalingrad, and thus lost the war. Another little useless fact from me.
Cheers
Chris
_________________
Chris
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
MaksimSmelchak
|
Post subject: Air Support Posted: Sun May 18, 2003 5:22 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
 |
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:43 pm
Posts: 7258
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
|
|
These are all "what-if" scenarios at this point, but...
Going for the vital Middle Eastern oil would have been a better deal. The Germans could also then threaten the UK's hold in India and the Far East.
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Legion 4
|
Post subject: Air Support Posted: Sun May 18, 2003 8:43 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
|
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA
|
I think, bottom line is Russia's numbers in men, production levels, the broad expanses and winters would have won in the end either way. And it did; not to mention the US/UK efforts in the West.
Hey Maksim, did you get that GZG website I sent you? Cool pics "be there" ... ?
_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
|
|
| Top |
|
|
