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Xavi
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Post subject: Unit upgrades  Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2004 2:58 pm |
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Ok, seems that here we have a bunch of people ranting about the fact that the companies should opperate as platoons when it comes to firing.  Actually I would argue that they should _act_ independently (so you can deploy a tank company in 3 plattons of 3-4 tanks each) but then we get a game with a lot more formations and a lot more orders as a consequence. Gains realism and flexibility, but it seems that the system is not designed in this way. Or so can be argued.
Still, the rule is clear. If it is part of the formation it shots at the same target as the rest of the formation. It is one reason why I will take support fire platoons in an infantry formation but not tanks if I have to chose between them. Sad but true.
Regards,
Xavi
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Unit upgrades Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2004 2:59 pm |
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That might be the answer ... shoot at whatever target is within range ... 
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Xavi
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Post subject: Unit upgrades Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 4:20 am |
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Or being able to subdivide a formation into platoons that opperate independently on the battlefield. You could give the same order to the whole company (double move, sustained fire...) but then each platoon acts independently.
Additionally, an other option would be that if you want a platton in the formation following a differnet order or acting out of formation with the parent company command (out of formation with the formation where the command unit is) they get a -1 to their activation roll. Means that they would still opperate better together, but that you could have much more flexibility there.
All the actions of the company are done at the same time.
Xavi
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Mojarn Piett
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Post subject: Unit upgrades Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 7:26 am |
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That's more or less what I have thought: Each company gets one order as before but for shooting each platoon counts as a separate formation.
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MaksimSmelchak
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Post subject: Unit upgrades Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:36 pm |
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Unit upgrades are odd for E-A Sms...
It's very hard to get Predators or LRs... as upgrades...
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
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Xavi
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Post subject: Unit upgrades Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:27 am |
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| Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 07 2004 Sep.,07:26) | | That's more or less what I have thought: Each company gets one order as before but for shooting each platoon counts as a separate formation. |
Well, I was proposing even more flexibility than that, with each squadron acting on their own like an independent formation, kaving to keep a coherency with other formations in their company of say 20 cm instead of 5. You would get a -1 to activation rolls in that case, though. But yup, more flexibility in general.
Xavi
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iblisdrax
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Post subject: Unit upgrades Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:47 pm |
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hmmm....only problem with that is you could be slowing the game down with this particular change. Me personally, I prefer the One formation, One target rules, as it keeps the game simpler and faster flowing. But, that is just me. 
my 2cents,
iblisdrax
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dafrca
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Post subject: Unit upgrades Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:21 am |
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| Quote (iblisdrax @ 08 2004 Sep.,06:47) | | Me personally, I prefer the One formation, One target rules, as it keeps the game simpler and faster flowing. ?But, that is just me. |
No, it is not just you.
I too like the one formation, one target simplistic idea. I will never ask a set of rules to be completly "realistic". I know sometimes rules must give up realism for playability, and quite frankly I want a simple game to have fun with. 
dafrca
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Mojarn Piett
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Post subject: Unit upgrades Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 8:46 am |
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To each his own I guess. But I don't think it would slow the game down, at least by much. OTOH it would certainly add more realism to the target selection. I have played ASL and am not fond of TOO detailed rules but there are times when the "simplicity" factor gets more weight than it should. 
Like Legion 4 usually says: do whatever works for you. I think that should be the first line in the wargamer's first book of indoctrinations.
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Xavi
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Post subject: Unit upgrades Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:12 am |
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Agreed and agreed. Simplicity is ok as long as it is ok for the gaming experience but in case it does not model well what should be happening with a minimum of common sense yoi might consider increasing the overall length of the battle by 15-20 minutes (in a 4 hour battle that is not much) and get a much more comprehensive result with minimal chages. I would go for that.
Still, if we do NOT apply any house rules, it seems that adding leman russes or other stuff like that to an infantry company is poo. For an infantry (not mechanized) company, stuff like demolishers *might* be good since they add to ther firepower of the squad, specially in firefights when you want to conquer an enemy entrenched position, but not as the stop-gap option to get a shot at tanks that treaten your formation, that it would be my idea of why to take them  So the rules are quite weird here.
And yup, do whatever works for you. As long as you have fun it is good! 
Xavi
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Warmaster Nice
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Post subject: Unit upgrades Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:56 am |
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L4's school of thought can never be questioned. We also use a bunch of house rules to suit our tastes.
I prefer to only allow SOME formations to act independantly. After all the IG is traditionally not a very flexible force. Leave that to armies like Space Marines and Eldar. Even though ity may not allways be common sense it is sometimes nesescary in order to differentiate armies and give them unique characteristics. One of the main problems in E40k was IMO that you had no real sense of command structure for each army. You could have IG or Ork formations of only a few tanks and Eldar hosts bigger than an IG company!
Though it may make the IG less effective I prefer to have huge formations grinding the enemy down rather than many smalll flexible "realistic" formations. It just feels a bit more fluffy IMO.
But like I said: do what suits your tastes. 
Cheers!
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dafrca
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Post subject: Unit upgrades Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:55 pm |
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| Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 09 2004 Sep.,00:46) | | To each his own I guess. But I don't think it would slow the game down, at least by much. |
Xavi suggested allowing each "squad" in a formation to select and fire at it's own target. So let's see, that means I could have ten different targets with ten different combat resolution calculations to do for just my first tank formation?
I can not see how anyone could argue this would not slow the game down. Should we allow this, the number of each seperate calculations per activation would grow quite large, and slow for very little aded "realism". The very game mechanic we are using is based on massed fire is effective fire.
Of course if that is what you think of as fun, well then have at it. 
dafrca
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Unit upgrades Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:01 pm |
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Well ... my work is done here ... Thanks Boyz !
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Xavi
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Post subject: Unit upgrades Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:02 pm |
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Nope, I suggest each PLATOON (6 infantry bases, or 3 tanks) to shot at different target. That is 2 formations for an basic infantry company, 3 for a tank company. If you rake a tank platoon in the infantry company, then it would be an other one as well (can select an other target).
So not as many as you say
Regards,
Xavi
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Unit upgrades Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:28 pm |
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The way we do it is that formations are only integrated during transport. Using SM1 TO&Es generally with some modifications as required. Examples: IG Tac Det is 9 Stands, when activated, they would move, fire etc. A L/Russ det. is 3-5 tanks, when activated they would do the same. No unit would consist of both vehicles and infantry etc., save for during transport and a few exceptions like a Commissar Stand with Rhino. The rule we made for special troops (as in SM2) like Chaplins, Libs, Medics, etc., that they can be attached to standard units. Like a Medic stand and his Rhino may be attached to an SM Tac Det of 8 Stands and in this case they would activate as one unit. Of course there is a lot more units to activate, generally.
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