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Aeronautica Re-release

 Post subject: Re: Aeronautica Re-release
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:12 pm 
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The economics of making plastic minis are not as expensive as they used to be. Frankly, I’m tired of people saying that GW is unwilling to do X or Y is because making a set of minis is too expensive. I think the number of plastic models released by GW in the last few years demonstrates pretty clearly that the capital investment required to make a line of plastic minis isn’t an issue for GW.

I’m also not convinced that GW is all that concerned about cannibalizing sales of 40k. It seems to me that Age of Sigmar is cannibalizing 40k sales to a much greater degree than epic ever could. The amount of effort that GW puts into that [entirely new] IP dwarfs anything they’d need to do for epic. Conversely, it is also clear that GW is willing to invest in plastic models for marginal games. Sales of Necromunda and Blood Bowl models have got to be 2 or 3 orders of magnitude less that models for 40k, but GW continues to invest in those games.

I think the only significant challenge that GW has in producing minis at 6mm or 8mm is the fact that their designers are used to dealing with 28mm scale models and the associated minimum detailed sizes. But rescaling can be tackled in a systematic way, and GWs designers clearly already know how to do it.

I don’t think GW will re-release Epic any time soon, but I don’t think that decision was based strictly on economics, because that decision would have had to rank Epic behind Necromunda and Blackstone Fortress and all of the other random stuff they’ve produced lately.

Instead, I would suggest that the reason that GW doesn’t want to make a new Epic game is because they don’t want to put themselves in a situation where every time they add to or redo a faction in 40K then they have to repeat the process for the Epic scale minis/rules/army lists. I’m other words, I don’t think the game designers of a given GW game want to be beholden to another GW game.

I think it’s interesting that the only models in the new AI box that have plastic kits in 40k are the ork dakkajets, the rest are based on the 15+ year old FW designs. It will be interesting to see what aircraft the other factions get, and if anyone will get units that are entirely new.


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 Post subject: Re: Aeronautica Re-release
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:15 pm 
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Pardon me for asking, but WHO are these ”people” you reder to? Expensive designs and manufacture seems a minute portion of the conversation here?

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 Post subject: Re: Aeronautica Re-release
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:02 am 
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Nitpick wrote:
Pardon me for asking, but WHO are these ”people” you reder to? Expensive designs and manufacture seems a minute portion of the conversation here?
I'm 85% confident that my response below won't be viewed as constructive, but it's late, so what the hell...

My post was mainly in response to ...
Thinking Stone wrote:
...I think the design cost and game niche are much greater factors (and the small uptake it’d have as a niche game)...
And
Glynn wrote:
...As in the box consists of two armies of identical marines, just like AT Grandmasters has two identical armies that just get painted differently to differentiate them as loyalists or heretics. It would be a much more manageable range of models to produce then...
And
Blip wrote:
As Glynn says, the outside chance is 30k Epic. Identical armies help investment costs and projected sales...
And
Blip wrote:
...But i doubt they will do standard 40k stuff in small scale as it would eat sales of 28mm...
And please understand I'm not meaning to nitpick those three "people" - similar sentiments have been expressed in the main Adeptus Titanicus thread. I just think that all of those statements are directly contradicted by the large amount of models, boxed games, themed dice, card packs, etc. that GW has brought out in the last few years.

Sure, this thread is ostensibly about AI, but those other topics did get mentioned on page 3 of this thread, just like they were discussed in the AT thread. For me, when statements get brought up again and again in spite of them being (in my opinion) demonstrably false, I feel the need to try to offer examples of how those statements aren't necessarily supported by the available facts.

I fully recognize that everything I've stated is just my own opinion; I am merely trying to explain how I arrived at it.


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 Post subject: Re: Aeronautica Re-release
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:50 pm 
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 Post subject: Aeronautica Re-release
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:48 pm 
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semajnollissor wrote:
Nitpick wrote:
Pardon me for asking, but WHO are these ”people” you reder to? Expensive designs and manufacture seems a minute portion of the conversation here?
I'm 85% confident that my response below won't be viewed as constructive, but it's late, so what the hell...

My post was mainly in response to ...
Thinking Stone wrote:
...I think the design cost and game niche are much greater factors (and the small uptake it’d have as a niche game)...
And
Glynn wrote:
...As in the box consists of two armies of identical marines, just like AT Grandmasters has two identical armies that just get painted differently to differentiate them as loyalists or heretics. It would be a much more manageable range of models to produce then...
And
Blip wrote:
As Glynn says, the outside chance is 30k Epic. Identical armies help investment costs and projected sales...
And
Blip wrote:
...But i doubt they will do standard 40k stuff in small scale as it would eat sales of 28mm...
And please understand I'm not meaning to nitpick those three "people" - similar sentiments have been expressed in the main Adeptus Titanicus thread. I just think that all of those statements are directly contradicted by the large amount of models, boxed games, themed dice, card packs, etc. that GW has brought out in the last few years.

Sure, this thread is ostensibly about AI, but those other topics did get mentioned on page 3 of this thread, just like they were discussed in the AT thread. For me, when statements get brought up again and again in spite of them being (in my opinion) demonstrably false, I feel the need to try to offer examples of how those statements aren't necessarily supported by the available facts.

I fully recognize that everything I've stated is just my own opinion; I am merely trying to explain how I arrived at it.

My point there was exactly that design and manufacture costs are only one factor of several! : D Though I agree it perhaps wasn’t stated so clearly along those lines. I guess it’s also pertinent to keep in mind that ‘design costs’ are always in the context of what demand will result in the most sales.

I think it’s the targeting of particular demands that’s the key factor: ‘game niche’ or ‘playstyle niche’ seems much more important for GW, and all the games so far have a distinctive feel to set them apart. We were discussing how Epic is unlikely to meet that pattern (factors being the existence of Apocalypse and the focus of Titanicus), and I think that’s probably regardless of costs.

The ‘continuity between games’ point is not a convincing one for me. We do have several examples of discontinuity in GW IPs (Total War: Warhammer/AoS/Bloodbowl, Necromunda doesn’t have everything in 40K, AT doesn’t have everything Knight+). I don’t think the specialist games design has any problem with leaving things out if they don’t fit the ‘niche’ of the game (at any rate, AT seems to be doing finely with adding things slowly, and the designers seem to approach it proactively rather than as a burden).

So, in summary: I agree that design and manufacture costs are not the only factor in producing game material. At the moment, I think the ‘playstyle niche’ of a game is the main factor; I don’t think continuity between games is a major factor. All my humble opinions, of course!

====

Good observation about the use of ‘archaic’ flyer designs in AI so far, too! I hadn’t thought of that before! It will be interesting to see where they go from here.


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 Post subject: Re: Aeronautica Re-release
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:02 pm 
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Yeah. I had the same impression as the Stone-person above. So now that is settled then :)

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 Post subject: Re: Aeronautica Re-release
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:11 pm 
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Too much overthinking / second guessing here IMHO :P

Epic was once GW's 3rd game system, and is a ready made audience waiting to be monitised. GW will make it happen any way they can because it will earn them money. I've seen countless fan favourite projects / concepts make production that were inevitable with hindsight, including:

- WH40k TV / Film. People asked for years why this didn't exist, now we have 2 on the horizon (you could also count the awful Ultramarines movie, but I see this as a GW experiment, preparation for the projects in production now).

- Dredd. Fans wanted a sequel, now they are getting Mega City One.

- Dawn of War 3. Fans wanted it, they got it. Shame it was rubbish. Regardless, I'm certain DoW4 will be made sometime in the future.

- Dune. One of the best selling science fiction books in history. 1 failed film, 1 failed TV series, 1 film that never got off the ground... They said it was the film that could never be made, and yet now we have Denis Villeneuve directing a new attempt.

The list goes on. Geek concepts with an existing fanbase just get made. It might take 5 years or 10 years, but I'd stake my miniatures collection on Epic being recycled, just like everything else.

Or, as an architect I was watching on YouTube mused - nothing is new, there are only iterations of existing concepts and designs.

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 Post subject: Re: Aeronautica Re-release
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:48 pm 
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Fugging heck, that AI stuff is expensive.


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 Post subject: Re: Aeronautica Re-release
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:49 pm 
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If I weren't so lazy, I would just design and print my own, with blackjack and hookers.


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 Post subject: Re: Aeronautica Re-release
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:43 am 
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Otterman wrote:
Fugging heck, that AI stuff is expensive.

I never got the Marauder Destroyers when they first came out so will pick these up and give the rest a miss.

Then again I still have the original AI rules etc so can just drag those out if I fancy a game.

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 Post subject: Re: Aeronautica Re-release
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:54 am 
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I would love to see the Marauders in person. We live in Interesting Times, don't we?

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 Post subject: Re: Aeronautica Re-release
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:46 pm 
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They are big. Demonstration games were being held in my local GW last weekend.

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 Post subject: Re: Aeronautica Re-release
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:44 pm 
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Yeah, I saw a Marauder in an unboxing vid, and they appear to have about a 3 inch (8 cm) wingspan!

The Ork 'Eavy Bommerz are going to be huge.

From a painter's perspective, I love it. From a gamer's perspective, it makes for a crowded table!


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 Post subject: Re: Aeronautica Re-release
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:23 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Aeronautica Re-release
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:16 pm 
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It's a bit annoying that the bombers dont do anything until you buy the expansion. But still, I think I'd probably buy it to play with my son if he were just a bit older. The style is a bit less, well, grim and dark than the rest of 40K but think it's probably a bit too complicated for 8.

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