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Vior'la Tau 1.2 - Community Thoughts

 Post subject: Vior'la Tau 1.2 - Community Thoughts
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:34 pm 
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Hey everyone,

As I'm sure many have seen by this point, Borka has stepped down as the Tau AC and I'll be picking up the mantel. Besides ensuring that a few balance tweaks go though with the third sphere list, the next biggest project is the completion and approval of the Vior'la list.

There have been a few variations of the list that have existed recently with main ones being Matt Shadowlords, which played in a similar fashion to the 3rd sphere list ("TSL"), and Borka's, which provided a more unique structure, included additional heavy suits, and draws inspiration from the EUK's developmental list of the same name.

My impression is that there is a large number of people eager to see how the Vior'la list is developed, and I'd like to bring this list to a place a stability and get it approved. However, before going forward, I wanted to get a feel from the community on what their expectations are for the list, what people liked, disliked, and what they want in it. This isn't a guarentee that everyone's wish list will make it, I just want a better idea of what people want.

To start it off, here's the direction that I'm envisioning:
- building on the current list, rather than a reversion to the "TSL Plus";
- incorporating some new units including heavy suits, fliers, supremacy etc;
- removal of units heavily featured in the TSL is help create a different play style;
- shorten ranges for units at increased power to enable a more Mont'ka play style;
-featuring fire warriors, pathfinders, and crisis suits to match the fluff where these units are primary parts of their fighting force;
- providing a template to the supremacy suit per 40k fluff, but w no benefit from marker lights;
- keep to a list that builds on general Tau playstyle designed such as utilizing marker lights and coordinated fire to bring the full potential of the list to bear.

Have at it folks!

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau 1.2 - Community Thoughts
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:53 pm 
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The aircraft are junk. They don't have a roll in the current version. Too weak for close air support, useless in air superiority.

The ghostkeel should have marker lights.

The super suits need to be more defined as fire support element.

Something, anything with the Manta.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau 1.2 - Community Thoughts
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:52 pm 
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I think we are mostly on the same page Gunslinger, I have no strong feelings on the direction of the list other than it not simply be "Third Phase plus"

A focus on FW and PF seems entirely reasonable with heavy and super heavy suits providing fire support, either close up like riptides or further out like storm surges or supremacy suits, I see no need for hammerheads of any variety myself, even if they exist in the fluff.... Trim some fat and get to the core of the list

The manta needs a shot in the arm, twin-linking, dropping points and adding a command bridge all make it a more attractive option, I'd support all three changes

I'm more than willing to help playtest, gonna be getting my photon going printing out some reinforcements soon :)

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau 1.2 - Community Thoughts
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:03 am 
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That all sounds reasonable to me. If you essentially replace the hammerheads with heavy suits you get a mobile gun platform instead of a more static one.

I forget, are there broadsides in this list?


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau 1.2 - Community Thoughts
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:31 am 
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Alf O'Mega wrote:
I forget, are there broadsides in this list?


Yup! Currently a formation of 6 or as an upgrade for fire warriors.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau 1.2 - Community Thoughts
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:46 am 
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m_folais wrote:
The aircraft are junk. They don't have a roll in the current version. Too weak for close air support, useless in air superiority.

The ghostkeel should have marker lights.


I think the bomber offers the rare access for Tau to gain templates, so there's a good roll there.

I can see concern for the razor shark being a bit more hamstrung. However, we don't want to reprint the barracuda stats under a different name.

For the Ghostkeel, I don't believe they carry a ML in 40k. Their current roll is more of a heavier deep threat that can enhance stealth suits rather than serving the same roll in the list but w better stats.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau 1.2 - Community Thoughts
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:32 am 
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gunslinger007 wrote:
For the Ghostkeel, I don't believe they carry a ML in 40k. Their current roll is more of a heavier deep threat that can enhance stealth suits rather than serving the same roll in the list but w better stats.


I haven't played 40k since 4th ed. I have zero idea what the new stuff is or does at 28.

I did sell off my sunshark. That may dis-qual me. Tau should not have templates at all, ever. Even the dam spaceship has no templates. I think that was the one part of the army that set them apart from all the others.

For the bomber. 2bp is BS. A bomber would be dropping 500 plus.

I would like to see it either fill the role of an AC130 or an AT10. The f15 couple of shit bombs and 30mm guns is not a bomber. Either it rains pain at range or it jacks everything up, up close and personal

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau 1.2 - Community Thoughts
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:39 am 
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I quite like the fact that the NetEA and EpicUK Tau 6.8 (TSL) are one and the same.
What about working to make the Vior'la lists the same as well??

I've found Fire Warriors pretty strong performers with the TSL Tau. Happy to have
them remain so but that does not differentiate the Vior'la very strongly from TSL.

More love for Mantas, . . . yeah.

Most importantly MORE TIME for ACTUAL GAMES.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau 1.2 - Community Thoughts
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:10 am 
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Looking forward to this list getting approved.

EUK will work to ensure that we keep a single list.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau 1.2 - Community Thoughts
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:09 pm 
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This seems like exactly the right attitude for this; really looking forwards to seeing what you make of them.
I have Loved playing the earlier Vior'la lists, and really want to see it tinkered a little more.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau 1.2 - Community Thoughts
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:32 pm 
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Andrew_NZ wrote:
I quite like the fact that the NetEA and EpicUK Tau 6.8 (TSL) are one and the same.
What about working to make the Vior'la lists the same as well??

I've found Fire Warriors pretty strong performers with the TSL Tau. Happy to have
them remain so but that does not differentiate the Vior'la very strongly from TSL.

More love for Mantas, . . . yeah.

Most importantly MORE TIME for ACTUAL GAMES.
I don't want to promise that EUK and NetEA will develop exactly the same, mainly based on EUK's more closed development v NetEAs more open source approach but also considering that EUK lists are generally more restrictive for their competitive scene, and NetEA being a bit more expansive and fluffy. Of course there can also be creative differences.

That said, I highly respect Kyuss and his work and we've had back and forth discussions on the lists, the units, and the general direction/goals of the Vior'la lists. Given that the TSL is the only (?) list that matches between the two groups, I feel that a certain amount of effort should be made to continue with that trend.

Thays why I'm looking for this discussion on the issue! If a lot of the community feels strongly about that, I'll give it more emphasis in the list design. My general approach for AC list design is to merge community opinion with personal vision, and balance it all with practical testing and gameplay. I see the job as one to help guide a community driven balanced list across the finish line, not just create a list to my own wants and needs. The list will (hopefully!) be used by a lot of people, and their input and thoughts should be included.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau 1.2 - Community Thoughts
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:14 pm 
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I think the FW Manta is one of my favourite epic models. I would very much be interested in an Air Caste Assault list featuring Mantas and Orcas.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau 1.2 - Community Thoughts
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:40 am 
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atension wrote:
I think the FW Manta is one of my favourite epic models. I would very much be interested in an Air Caste Assault list featuring Mantas and Orcas.
Agreed, the Manta was a beautiful design. At the moment, I'm going to focus my attention on the Vior'la list, but I'd be happy to theory hammer and discuss ideas for the list if you'd like to take the banner up for the concept.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau 1.2 - Community Thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:23 am 
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gunslinger007 wrote:
I don't want to promise that EUK and NetEA will develop exactly the same, mainly based on EUK's more closed development v NetEAs more open source approach but also considering that EUK lists are generally more restrictive for their competitive scene, and NetEA being a bit more expansive and fluffy. Of course there can also be creative differences.


I started writing the alternative list with EUK in mind, because I wanted to be able to use my pretty battlesuit models, and quite a few folks had pointed out that while EUK has 8 flavours of chaos lists (how very apt...) 6 flavours of marines and eldar, and 5 varieties of guard, many other races have only a single list, and many are quite old and don't include the wealth of new units that GW has created (which let's be honest here, is what new gamers want to use)

My problem with the initial Vior'la list was that it largely made the 3rd phase list obsolete rather than complimenting it, for the loss of the kroot (which barely get used anyway) you gained all the new battlesuit options and didn't have to give up any of the other toys available to the Tau.... I know that some folks prefer a 'kitchen sink' approach, and there is an argument to be made that perhaps we should just include the suits in the 3rd phase list and be done with it....

However, In an effort to create a list that wasn't simply '3rd phase but with battlesuits instead of hammerheads' and in line with the EUK approach of cutting as much fat as possible, I fiddled with the structure a little, and after discussions with Steve54 and dptdexys, decided that the heavy suits being a core formation might help the list stand apart from the 3rd phase list. So I wrote it with that in mind, and after a dozen or so test games, I've found it plays quite well, it still needs to be a little hands-off at first, but when you pounce, you really get stuck in up close, and it has a different, more aggressive feel than the 3rd phase list, and on the tabletop, looks a little more like a modern Tau force you might see in a 40k game

Quote:
That said, I highly respect Kyuss and his work and we've had back and forth discussions on the lists, the units, and the general direction/goals of the Vior'la lists. Given that the TSL is the only (?) list that matches between the two groups, I feel that a certain amount of effort should be made to continue with that trend.

Thays why I'm looking for this discussion on the issue! If a lot of the community feels strongly about that, I'll give it more emphasis in the list design. My general approach for AC list design is to merge community opinion with personal vision, and balance it all with practical testing and gameplay. I see the job as one to help guide a community driven balanced list across the finish line, not just create a list to my own wants and needs. The list will (hopefully!) be used by a lot of people, and their input and thoughts should be included.


If the will of EpicUK is to harmonize the lists, then I am all for it, I trust Gunslinger's vision and will do my utmost to help out any way I can with playtests and feedback

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