I would like to see the range of the commander ability increased.
Its one of those rarely used skills, because we are always worried about intermingling.
If this was at 30 cm (I know, huge jump ... but think how rare commander units are) it would make it a worth while option - i.e why a SM player may take a captain as opposed to an inspiring unit.

I would also like to see the scout rule changed for ZOC within terrain. Ive seen scouts deliberately placed 10cm into terrain, meaning that they cant be seen, and the opponent cant enter the terrain to see them as its ZOC.
Just seems a tad mental.

I believe that macro weapon should be a weapon attribute rather than a weapon type, so that the guns that are currently just macro weapons could instead have different AP and AT to-hit values. I.e. a MW4+ could instead be a AP4+(MW) and AT5+(MW) or maybe be a AP4+(MW) and AT3+ (with no MW for AT targets).

I also think all AA guns should list their AA shooting stats on a separate stat line, so that the AA range can be different that the 'ground' range.

Couple of things I'd like.
1. If a skimmer unit does not choose to CC when in base to base find some way to allow the CC unit to walk past the skimmer to CC units behind
2. Jump infantry and skimmers should be able to force CC against skimmers
3. Terrain and war engines should have 'height' stats - if your war engine is taller than terrain it can see over it in the same way a popped up skimmer can, infantry/tanks/etc. on hills can see over lower down terrain, etc.
4. Intermingling I think needs looking at, especially with scouts - having a daisy chain of scouts intermingled at one end with a big formation or titan or something and then getting clipped 80cm away the other end of your chain sucks. It doesn't hurt more experienced players 'cos they know not to do that but for the new players coming in or starting up again or switching from some other version it's incredibly sucky and hugely unfun

I totally agree, it is extremelly gamey and doesn't make much sense. I posted accordingly.

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I agree that it makes little sense for a large formation to break because some nearby scouts are running away from an enemy formation that is attacking a point some miles away. However it is quite a different matter where the two formations are occupying the same piece of geography.

The problem is trying to formulate a simple rule that is both practical and sensible; at what point should a formation react to some nearby friends running away, and conversely when should they ignore the nearby 'wimps'?

If I could make one change to Epic it'd be change SC to auto pass a failed activation/rally roll.(or a least a reroll at +1/+2).
Just played a few too many games where a big titan gets broken and fails to ever rally/snake eyes on a crucial activation roll ends up deciding a game. I also think this would help armies who struggle to retain(I.e Guard) which limits the opportunities for more risk taking and combos you see from other armies.

Agree with Dan on commander rule - I've literally only ever seen it used with teleporting commanders(I.e Avatar) or when a whole bunch of units intermingle to be way to scary to assault. 10cm would do it, hell even 6cm would make it a much better rule!

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Ginger, perhaps the mechanic should be that Scouts, by nature of their operational uses/tactics/doctrines just simply don't work for intermingling and combined assault (perhaps with caveat unless all formations are Scout)?

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Mark / Dan, I regularly use 'commander' with the Eldar Farseer and Avarar.

Mounted guardians and two jetbike formations allow tactical flexibility with a powerfull combined assault. That said, to do so I also end up with these formations heavily intermingled (to avoid them suffering a clipping assault), which in turn makes them susceptible to artillery barrages. Obviously these rules all work together, and changing any one of them has quite a significant effect on the game.

Allowing 'Commander' to work across a greater distance would make it much more potent unless the other rules were also enhanced in a similar fashion. However, I suggest that 'Commander' might be added for free to other leaders (but selectively, ). Don't forget that combining formations like this affects the activation balance. 'Commander' is not easy to use and has drawbacks as well as benefits.

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'Intermingling' is harder to modify. Jimmy's point about scouts is a possible approach, though would also raise anomalies. While it would be inappropriate for an IG company to be affected by the loss of a few sentinels, or intermingled mounted Guardians and jetbikes being affected by the loss of 4x Rangers, it becomes more questionable where the formation sizes are more equivalent, eg 8x Rangers or 6x Warwalkers compared with an unmodified Guardian or Aspect formation; or 4x marine scouts compared with 4x Devastators or Assault marines. And this is why it is hard to fix - we all know when it feels wrong, but how to define when it is appropriate in a clear and simple fashion?!

IMO distance should be taken into consideration. Troops are much more likely to worry about friends routing within a few hundred meters, than those they see running several miles away. So perhaps 'intermingled' should refer to the proximity to the combat as well rather than just proximity to a friendly formation; eg:



"X" is up for debate, though IMO it should be less than 30cm and possibly 20cm or lower. And yes I realise that intermingled is declared before the units are moved, so that would also need to be modified.

Hrmmmm another thought is to do some ratio perhaps? 1:2 of the possible intermingling is ok but in the scouts get beyond the as t them they're too much of the concerned force to ignore them breaking. Seems fiddly though.

Probably just being not considered is no more, no less odd than the existing story. No rules abstraction us perfect. Meh...

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Yes, I remember your Warp Spiders+bikes being quite handy, and commander does work better with hit&Arun and higher SR. In the eldar list it's free with certain formations, perhaps if Ork Nobs, Dracons, other characters could take it it would see more use. Just off the top of my head if you were to combine librarians with captains(MW FF and commander) they could see play alongside Chaplains.

With intermingling I generally find experienced players only do it when (a) they have no choice or (b) it's intentional to benefit from multiple formations supporting each other. Scout screens can be a pain but I think learning not to intermingle them is possibly easier than any new rule. For newer players I do think the rule might be better if it was (friendly units cannot be within 5cm of each other unless the owning player declares them intermingled.)
Nothing worse than losing multiple formations because you didn't stop to measure properly...

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I think it is only sporting to ask a less experienced player if they meant to intermingle units before they end their activation.

I like Jimmi's idea to remove scouts from intermingling idea, but i think it could result in abuse, allowing scout screens to be reinforced by "untouchable" firefight backup. Eg. A line of sentinels with a mech inf Co 1cm behind...

As Mark says, intermingling by mistake is something only done once. Though somehow i always get myself in a muddle playing against SteveC and get myself in a position where i cant help it! More practice needed!


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Auto pass for SC reroll is the most interesting suggestion to me. Though I guess reroll a 2+ retain vs say a 5+ retain (say to sustain with BM'd orks) is a big difference! Maybe SC reroll give +1 to the activation roll?

I'd echo on the intermingle, changing it opens up some massively gamey options (and I say this as someone who loves scouts). I think the don't be a dick rule applies well with this - ie if its an inexperienced player, just ask if they know about intermingle. If its an experienced tournament player in a tournament game then its probably deliberate. I've often dumped 2+ guard/squat units on terrain and intermingled for the +2 inspiring, and extra numbers. This is also where commander can work really well. On commander, I think it has to be a high risk (ie 5cm) rule because it can be so powerful. I had my fearless, 4+ ra BTS wiped to a man in a single round of combat against dpdexys commander led double terminator assault earlier this year. The risk on his side was that I won strategy but if you could do it without that risk it would be all benefit with no downside.

Blip - that does happen a lot when we play, probably cos I move your models when you're not looking! ;-)

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I always (that is, if I don't forget) ask my opponent if he intends to leave his models intermingled after a move. However I have always thought that the solution to the 'intermingled with some scouts on the other side of the board' issue is relatively simple: make it so a formation can only be considered intermingled with the target formation if it is directly involved in the assault (i.e. within 15cm).

On commander I think there are a few options that have been suggested over the years:
- increase the range (coordinated fire uses 15cm)
- allow it to be used defensively
- allow it to be used with additional actions
- give it some sort of initiative, rally or reroll function


Personally I think the biggest thing that would benefit the game would be to increase the relative power of CC, which could be done in a few ways. For example kills in CC count double for resolution, or even prevent firefight from being used against units in base to base, or split into two rounds - you have to survive CC to be able to attack with FF. Something fairly radical.

On terrain, there is something dissatisfying there too. Maybe the toe in the shrub is the worst offender, in particular if it doesn't actually obscure the model at all (e.g. the shrub is to the rear of the model). That latter situation could be negated by a simple clarification (ie you only get the modifier if obscured from the attacker, rather than just being 'in' terrain). More generally, it feels much more incongruous for large war engines so perhaps it could potentially be solved by one or both of:
- make more terrain impassable to war engines
- make dangerous terrain rolls scale with DC (e.g. DC3 loses a hit on a 1-3)



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Re the commander debate, - I accept that some lists,when played well can enjoy an advantage through commander, particularly eldar. I've also seen the double terminator approach with marines. This said, there is a considerable amount of risk also, especially if you don't get first turn. Do we consider that risk as part of the cost for the ability? (E.g like teleport where you risk blaster markers and not going first) , if so, I'd say its dispraportionate. Think about the marine options, 50 points for commander is a poor return in comparative to a Chaplin.
The extra distance takes away the intermingled risk, a wise opponent will still see and should be able to counter the thread should they get turn.

Yes, given what your Super Stompas did to my marines last game I probably shouldn't be suggesting a rule that makes that even nastier! Orks in particular have buckets of shooting dice balanced by their difficulty in sustaining. My suggestion also doesn't take into account their free SC...

I think perhaps +2 would meet the objectives of allowing Titans out of 30cm to (once) reliably rally and Guard to (once per turn) reliably retain. There's the potential for some units to be a bit good but I do think it'd make Epic less swingy on dice rolls.

I think some of these suggestions could be nice to try at a one off tournament - I appreciate it's not so easy to change the main rules on an OOP game when potential new players might well just have the original rule book.

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