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Death Guard v0.4

 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:48 am 
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Has anyone else managed to get a game in with 0.4.x?

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:29 pm 
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Sorry, wasn't able to meet up with the group in January. Hoping for better luck in February.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.4
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:12 pm 
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just getting back into epic after a few years off.
i have death guard from a previous version. was relieved to see a lot of the miniatures in the list have not changed, so i can play instead of paint. i will be getting a game in next week, and post my thoughts after.
thanks for keeping the death guard list going.


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.4
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:53 pm 
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Great, any games you can get in will be much appreciated, even if you can't do a batrep!

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.4
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:13 pm 
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I'm pretty late to the party, but looking over the list I've got a question about Plague Hulks. Is there a reason that they're the only Defiler variant that has neither Infiltrate or Fearless? The lack of Fearless is especially strange, given that they're literally a daemon-centaur.

Also, what the heck do people use for Nurglings that aren't practically invisible at Epic scale?


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.4
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:42 pm 
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Doh! That's a copy-paste error on my part.

Plague Hulks should have both Fearless and Infiltrator.

Desecrators shouldn't have Infiltrator, although I'd been considering adding it to make mixed Walker formations more viable.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.4
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:20 pm 
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I'm planning to put a 0.4.3 version up on the weekend that fixes Plague Hulks and a few other bits like missing fire arcs for the Titans.

However...


Nurgle's Rot

As a rule it works OK, but has arguably become too subtle in effect for a rule that's on only three units. It also causes cross-compatability issues within other lists that might want to use Beasts of Nurgle and share the same profile.

This leaves me two main options for Nurgle's Rot: move it to an army-wide rule, or remove it completely.

1. Army-wide rule: on the one hand I love the idea of this and it's very fluffy. On the other hand, why would units in a Death Guard force be more pestilential than the same units in a mono-Nurgle Daemon Incursion list etc?

2. Remove Nurgle' Rot: this is probably the easiest, especially given the large number of special rules already involved in the list and the large number of different units that can be in a single formation.

Thoughts from everyone?


Now on to Beasts of Nurgle. Again. Given the large number of different Lesser Daemons and the small amount of design space in the d6 system, they're hard to make distinct from Plaguebearers without making them noticeably better or worse. Some thoughts I've had (some of which are repeats from previous discussions):

Daemonic Beasts (1SP) - give up on making a unique statline and use the 'default' Daemonic Beasts unit. This has had lots of testing and is distinct from the Plaguebearers, but from a background point of view I dislike the 20cm move and 40cm engage move.

Ghallamore with reduced FF (1SP) - take the Ghallamore Incursion statline (move 15cm Sv 4+ CC3+ FF5+, Mounted, Walker, Ignore Cover on CC and FF attacks) and drop the FF down to 6+. This is probably the simplest version and balances them against Plaguebearers by reducing their manoeuvrability in return for Ignore Cover on all their CC and FF attacks. On the other hand it makes them very similar to Plaguebearers.

Scout and 2SP - with a tip of the hat to Graf_Spee who originally suggested it, keep the Ghallamore Incursion profile with it's FF 5+ but make them cost two summoning points and add Scout. For firefights this would make them roughly equivalent to Plaguebearers (1xFF5+ instead of 2xFF6+), roughly half as effective in base contact and in formation size and half as effective in protecting the formation from incoming shots, but would allow some positioning shenanigans by summoning them 'onto' an enemy formation by placing enemy units in their ZoC.

Slow + Infiltrator (1SP) - as Ghallamore Incursion with FF6+, but reduce speed to 10cm and add Infiltrator. This would give them a unique role, but 10cm speed would neuter them as their own formation in the Ghallamore Incursion list and also cause issues when summoned onto a formation that wants to move much.

Super-tough and 2SP - bump up the summoning cost and make them really robust by giving them 4+ Reinforced Armour rather than 3+ armour. CC 4+, FF 5+, Ignore Cover on both.

Super-tough, Disrupt and 2SP - bump up the summoning cost. 4+ Reinforced Armour. CC 5+, FF 5+, Ignore Cover and Disrupt on both. Obviously Disrupt only has an effect if the formation loses the combat, but it's still going to help by increasing the chances of both sides breaking.

High damage, lower resilience and 2SP - bump up the summoning cost. Save 4+, CC 3+, FF 4+, Ignore Cover and Disrupt on both. This would make them better at firefights than two Plaguebearers but at the cost of lower resilience and half the number of bodies, and worse than two Plaguebearers in base contact.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.4
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:10 pm 
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Nurgle's Rot
#1 has continuity issues with other lists and might start bordering on OP. At the very least, you'd have to reassess some units and/or points costs.
#2 would be sad but not unreasonable.
Possible #3 could be to make it available as an upgrade to certain formations?


Beasts of Nurgle
My vote would be for super tough and 2SP. It just fits the image I have of Beasts of Nurgle. Given their robustness and sludgy, crawly nature I might also remove Mounted from this version?

Basic Daemonic Beasts profile is definitely the simplest though. Although 20cm, 40 engage is a lot, Beasts have had varying speeds in 40K and Fantasy over the years (with their last Fantasy incarnation actually only being marginally slightly slower than heavy cav). So this gets my runner up vote.


Other
Could the Plague Reaper be upped to transport 4 Nurgling swarms so there isn't a chance of not being able to transport the full upgrade?


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.4
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:05 am 
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Nurgle's Rot #3 has some possibilities, and if it's formation-based rather than unit-based the wording of the rule gets much simpler as well. Rough draft:

'Nurgle's Rot is a pestilential disease from the warp that affects any enemy formation in an assault with this formation.
If the enemy formation wins the assault then they suffer an additional Blast Marker when working out the result. If they lose the assault then they suffer an additional 'extra hit' when working out the result.'

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.4
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:32 am 
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The wording works out pretty well. You may want/need to specify that it still applies even if the formation with Nurgle's Rot is wiped out before calculating results?

And back to the Beasts, any consideration to having Plaguebearers, Beasts of Nurgle, AND Daemonic Beasts available to summon (Beasts of Nurgle would definitely be at 2 SP in that case)? I'm just looking at some Warmaster Chaos Hounds on eBay, and wow do they look Nurgly!


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.4
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:01 am 
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In that situation the surviving formation 'is the winner' according to 1.12.7 so it should be covered already. Anyway, I went with a slightly different wording:

'Nurgle's Rot

Nurgle's Rot is a pestilential disease from the warp. It affects any enemy formation assaulting or assaulted by the formation with Nurgle's Rot.

When working out the result of the assault (1.12.7), if the enemy formation wins they suffer an additional Blast marker. If the enemy formation loses, they suffer an additional 'extra hit'.

Nurgle's Rot does not affect enemy formations belonging to the Chaos faction, Nurgle.'


This should make it clear that any formation in the assault is affected, no matter who initiated the assault, but formations giving Supporting Fire are unaffected because they weren't assaulted/didn't assault.


Daemonic Beasts - probably not. The list already has all three Daemon types and is suffering a bit from unit-bloat. I can see them making excellent Chaos Spawn proxies, though!

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.4
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:19 pm 
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0.4.3 added to the first post.

I should be getting a 2k test game on Tuesday evening, but it may be a while before I can upload the batrep. I'll be taking a Daemon Prince in a garrisoning Retinue and adding Nurgle's Rot to a Rhino-mounted Retinue.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.4
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:46 pm 
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How many points are you going to have the Nurgle's Rot upgrade at?


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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.4
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:47 pm 
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25pt. On the grounds that it doesn't help you win an assault, and you'd often be better off buying a Chaos Spawn for the same price.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v0.4
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:09 pm 
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That seems fair. I suspect it'd usually end up being the upgrade that you grab for a random formation when you have 25 points left.


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