Onyx wrote:
Elsaurio wrote:
A Reaver with three quake cannons costs 800 points.
A Land Train with the mortar cars and one bezerker car is 650
No, I was actually right.
A triple Quake Reaver is 825pts (you forgot the same weapon surcharge).
The 3 mortar train costs 600pts (I understand why you included the Berserker Car but it's not necessary in this comparison). You also forgot to mention the extra couple of Battlecannons that the train has.
There is no way that's balanced in comparison.
You're right! I did forget that 25 pt surcharge on the Quake titan. I did include the bezerker cart as a chance to get both warmachines up to 6DC 4 Void shields as we are trying to do a full comparison on costs, not just the firepower, which brings the train up to 650 points. Otherwise we'll just be benefitting the glass cannon units and not getting true costs. That extra speed and activation on the Reaver has to count for something.
I think the reaver is overcosted by 25-50 points - not many people take the 3 Quake cannon setup and there must be a reason for that. I also agree the Land Train might be a bit cheaper than it should, but not by much.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge proponent that this army
must have a 8 or 10 BP weapon option. In fact, I personally will be taking a 1 rad, 1 mortar, 2 bezerk land tain 90% of the time. But I can't see a reason to limit the army to not having one. I think that high BP barrages look powerful on paper, but on the tabletop you find it's a lot less effective. You quickly run out of large formations that are efficient enough to fire at to make your points back.
I find that a fair few armies that do have the options for high BP barrages don't field them that often, at least not around in my meta. Ordinary old Steel Legion can put together a terrifying 18BP manticore group that even has *disrupt* for a ridiculous amount of barrage (thats 4 templates, 4 extra blast markers plus all the extra ones from the
disrupt ability.) That formation can break a 10 unit Leman Russ formation in a single shot.
(Templates cover all ten, hit 5, kill at least one, 9 blast markers, broken)Quote:
Option 1 is the obvious solution.
Believe me, I understand the BP chart and it's game effects after developing the Iron Warriors Ordinatus (625pts, 4DC, 4Void Shields, 10cm move, 5+RA, NOT FEARLESS, Siege gun 60cm 9BP/Disrupt/Indirect etc).
I hadn't had a good look at the Iron Warriors until now. (Fantastic paintjob by the way). I have to compare it to the ATML Ordinatus Mars that only costs 500 points, and yet is far better than the Iron Warriors one (10 BP wit the amazing
disrupt ability again). I can only take a guess at the cost of the Ordinatus Medrengard might have something to do with the fact that it's in a list *stuffed* with a lot of other barrage weapons (I counted at least half a dozen)
plus lots more long ranged weapons and units - three types of aircraft, two spacecraft, dreadclaws, teleporting terminators plus the standard hard-as-nails marines that can triple move and still fight - all on 1+ activations.
Squats have none of that. They have precisely two long range weapons - the DoomsDay and the Goliath and absolutely no other 'reach out and touch you' ability. This means that they cannot really capitalize on their barrages - they might be able to break you but they cannot strafe you down with air, or get close enough to shoot a the broken unit.
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Auto-braking Warhounds without taking a shield down is just not meant to be part of the game (sure the chart goes up to 18 but it is almost never seen).
So we're talking about the hypothetical full 11 BP 4 mortar car Train? This thing costs 725 points so you cannot take any other war engines or golaiths (see there was a reason the engine went up 25 points)
For all their speed and firepower, Warhounds are pretty fragile, especially to being broken. And if a 725 point WE shoots at them I bloody well expect the warhound to get wrecked! The warhound is going to be broken from the extra blast markers, but even if it's in the 75cm battle cannon range so it takes the full blast from the train it's unlikely to even take a scratch, and will run away for a rally attempt.
Almost every other War Engine about that size and cost is going to either destroy or break a warhound.
*quick maths*
Yep
If fired upon, a warhound is going to go down vs
425 Twin Overlords*
450 Colossus
475 Cyclops
500 Twin Warhounds
650 Standard Reaver*
800 Warlord
(Assuming 60cm range, not sustaining, rounding up, ones with * leave it broken, but alive on 1DC).To make it's points back, the hypothetical super BP land train has to shoot and awful lot of large, tightly packed formations of high armour class space marines for 4 turns, and that's unlikely to happen that often.
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I say let the Squat player be happy with 90cm 4BP (MW) (for only 400pts) and be able to add a few other bits and pieces to the train.
And that's the real kicker. For a mere 400 points each you can take twin (Land Train + 1 Mortar + 1 Bezerker) set ups and absolutely wreck face. 2 x 4DC 2 Void shield trains, 2 x2 battle cannons and 2x2 templates worth of MW barrage. Oh and it gives you an extra activation and the ability to split fire. Taking this set up is far more efficient and powerful than the super train you called out in about 99% of situations.
That's why I'm leaning more towards the 'option 3' costing setup. It might be a little less neat, but it gives you accurate costs for what the train does. More expensive for the small version too.
Of course, this is all just theory. I'll take it all back after seeing these things ground tested.