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Storm Raven Unit Discussion

 Post subject: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:23 pm 
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Pulling this discussion into it's own dedicated thread. It's a good one to have and the unit is used by more than BA.

THIS IS NOT A DISCUSSION ABOUT THE BA LIST OR CHANGES WE'RE SAYING WE'RE MAKING TO THE LIST
This is a frank legacy free discussion on the unit itself in isolation of any list. People happy with BA in their tests can keep their ire packed away. In addition, calling for hacking up the BA will be considered off topic.

I see it as there are several axis of discussion around Storm Ravens as a unit in general.

-Why is it Skimmer/AV and not an AC in the first place?
-What is the intended role of the Storm Raven as envisioned as a Skimmer/AV, especially in the Blood Angels list?
-Why does it have the stats it does now?

Let's give a start with stating the current stats as they are in BA 2.4:
==============
Stormraven Gunship AV 35cm
A: 5+
C: 6+
F: 4+
Twin Heavy Bolter 30cm AP4+
Twin Assault Cannon 30cm AP4+/AT4+
2x Bloodstrike Missiles 60cm AT3+, Single Shot

Planetfall, Reinforced Armour, Skimmer, Transport: (May carry 1 Dreadnought; plus 1 Blood Angels Terminator unit or 2 of the following Blood Angels units: Assault, Death Company Assault, DeathCompany, Tactical, Devastator, Scout or Tactical)

editorial note: Please excuse the explicit use of BA specific units versus more generic sizes. Simply note the relative difference between guys in power armour and guys in terminator armour an move on

To Skimmer or Not To Skimmer...that is the question
==============
Frankly I don't know for sure but I've got a pretty good idea. Many of you may have been around for the initial discussion on the vehicle so feel free to correct me or point out what's the deal. E&C would be nice to state the initial reasoning.

My general hypothesis is that due to the Aerospace rules as written originally, the formation has to fit completely in a single unit per 4.2.5
Quote:
are only allowed to transport units from another formation as long as the whole formation can fit inside the transport aircraft


This means that either you can't use them as transports (gunships only), you have to use a useless / terrible formation size (2), or they have to be a single formation which means they really don't get to move (or must disengage in entirety).

IIRC, and this was so long ago back in my lurking days I might not remember correctly, the Thunderbrick Transporter had not gone approved and standardized the escape clause in the unit notes we all use now didn't exist.
Quote:
[XYZ] counts as a single War Engine for transport purposes


I should also point out that the existing pattern for vtol-esque assault transporters dejur was AV|WE/Skimmer such as is used by the Valk and Vulture so it made sense to go that route.

Shoulda/Gooda/Coulda aside, that's my understanding of the reasoning.

Storm Ravens, what's is go for? [hums War By Edwin Starr]
==============
What's the intended purpose of the Storm Raven in general, and especially in the Blood Angles list actually?
I'm going to admit that it has an rather schizo place right not. Is it the primary anti-AV hunter pack or is it the assault transport? The reason I mention it is that unfortunately as it stands (more so in prior versions), giving it weapons that pack such a hard hitting anti-armor package AND being able to deliver a nasty Devestator or worse, Terminator group into an Assault can make them crazy to deal with shifting. Reducing the shooting to reckon for T+1 activation shooting after an assault starts to make them unappealing as an armour hunter. I've got a feeling E&C was trying to bridge both by giving a nasty rocket attack but limited them to one-shot in hopes that it would balance. I'm not sure it really works in practice.

I think thematically and for game-play purposes that the assault transport role is more important for several reasons. One is that the iconic image of a Storm Raven is that of flying in and disgorging a group of marines into FF. Yes you can take them to shoot up things as a gunship but that's not the mental image for them. They're more like an Air Cav Huey from Vietnam in that respect. Two, it's easier to find an anti-armour/titan role in a list that it is to make the unit be a good for everything / jack of all trades and be balanced. For argument's sake that'd be more in line with a single missile attack, no one-shot business, a good FF (they've got hurricane bolters strapped on) or EA and allow something like predator annihilators in a list. Third, bookkeeping is horrible with them. Originally they had 4 one shot attacks each on formations of 4 (Been reduced to 8 shots in total now-still annoying). I found that it became common to just shoot the whole wad in one go, even it was overkill because I wanted to be done with it. That's not clean and elegant.

Why a duck?
==============
Kyrt asked a ggood question yesterday: Why does this have these stats. The terse but not intended to be snarky reply is, well, because that's what XM inherited from E&C. Upending the list and booting it down to Experimental was decided against (people may or may not agree with that choice-not cogent to this thread). In addition, these basic stats were shared with other lists so a more conservative approach was taken by in viewing change because causing churn there by fiat isn't kosher.

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:38 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
-Why is it Skimmer/AV and not an AC in the first place?


I don't think it deserves to be an aircraft any more than valks/vultures do really.... it's much more in the 'attack helicopter' category than a jet fighter

Quote:
-What is the intended role of the Storm Raven as envisioned as a Skimmer/AV, especially in the Blood Angels list?


actually I think the stormraven is the kind of transport the marines should have, IG get the excellent chimera AFV, yet the marines, supreme forces of the imperium get poxy rhinos to ride around in....

Quote:
-Why does it have the stats it does now?


most likely because it has been faithfully ported from its ludicrous, overgunned 40k stats....

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:58 pm 
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Repost:

How did the Stormraven get the stats it did? After looking at Steve's report I took a closer look.

These things have equivalent armor to a Predator in the fluff and 40k. Yet they have better armor in EA. On top of that, the missiles are effectively 4 single shot Krak missiles in 40k (AT6+). "Twining" them in EA I'd expect AT5+, not AT3+. Something like this would be a little easier to stomach game-play and fluff-wise:

Code:
Stormraven    AV    35cm    4+    6+    4+
Twin Heavy Bolter              30cm    AP4+
Twin Assault Cannon            30cm    AP4+/AT4+
2x Twin Stormstrike Missile    75cm    AT5+, SS
Hurricane Bolter              (15cm)   Small Arms, EA(+1)
Notes: Planetfall, Skimmer, Thick Rear Armour, Transport

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:21 pm 
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Dave wrote:
Repost:

How did the Stormraven get the stats it did? After looking at Steve's report I took a closer look.

These things have equivalent armor to a Predator in the fluff and 40k. Yet they have better armor in EA. On top of that, the missiles are effectively 4 single shot Krak missiles in 40k (AT6+). "Twining" them in EA I'd expect AT5+, not AT3+. Something like this would be a little easier to stomach game-play and fluff-wise:

Code:
Stormraven    AV    35cm    4+    6+    4+
Twin Heavy Bolter              30cm    AP4+
Twin Assault Cannon            30cm    AP4+/AT4+
2x Twin Stormstrike Missile    75cm    AT5+, SS
Hurricane Bolter              (15cm)   Small Arms, EA(+1)
Notes: Planetfall, Skimmer, Thick Rear Armour, Transport

Doesn't go far enough IMO. If it has predator armour, give it predator armour. Missiles are OTT and could also be limited to 1 missile at a time rather than 2x twin single shot. I would also drop the hurricane bolter as inconsequential (is it supposed to be a firefight support unit, or a gunship?? not both) and remove planetfall. Possibly un-twin the other weapons. Currently it dominates the list and I don't see why it should.

Maybe something like:

Code:
Stormraven    AV    35cm    4+    6+    4+
Heavy Bolter              30cm    AP5+
Assault Cannon            30cm    AP5+/AT5+
Stormstrike Missiles    60cm    AT5+
Notes: Skimmer, Transport (2)


This would be a solid skimming high-armour APC with predator-equivalent firepower.

If it should be a gunship then remove the transport option, if it should be a FF support unit then abstract the short-range weapons into its FF value.

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:17 pm 
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Kyuss wrote:
I don't think it deserves to be an aircraft any more than valks/vultures do really.... it's much more in the 'attack helicopter' category than a jet fighter

Agreed it's more a helicopter. I also think that my comments about the transport bit above also somewhat affected the Valk during the original EA testing. Though someone could argue that would reflect the less elite nature of guard as well. I personally think they sit in an area fluff-wise that isn't well represented by EA and are far better as AV/Skimmer than not.

One area where the Skimmer doesn't work well is that the rules for Jumpacks allow for the extended assault range on AC, not skimmers. That's never been an issue for say, guard. Perhaps the better way to flip the script is to wonder if a special note allowing the extended range is appropriate instead? I think it would be thematic but introduce more trouble than required/wanted/bad precedent.

Dave wrote:
These things have equivalent armor to a Predator in the fluff and 40k. Yet they have better armor in EA.

Incorrect. The current storm raven stats as I posted above have armour 5+. However they are RA but that's due I believe to the presence of Ceremite Shielding, which predators lack, generally being the addition of RA. I'm agreeable to the argument that is getting too fiddly from 40k stats.

Perhaps the older editions were higher. Perhaps that's a typo in the BA 2.4 list. Perhaps there was an armour nerf by XM in an attempt to help balance them out. I am not sure.

If they've got the armour of a predator, 4+, I concur it makes sense then to be the same.

Dave wrote:
The missiles are effectively 4 single shot Krak missiles in 40k (AT6+). "Twining" them in EA I'd expect AT5+, not AT3+.

Kyrt wrote:
[Missiles] could also be limited to 1 missile at a time rather than 2x twin single shot.

I do think that's far more elegant from bookkeeping and conciseness standpoint when put together if the role is Assault Transport (which as I stated in the OP is generally what the image of Storm Chickens is).

Kyrt wrote:
I would also drop the hurricane bolter as inconsequential (is it supposed to be a firefight support unit, or a gunship?? not both)

I disagree. I think it is consequential exactly for the fact that it's a FF support unit. I think we should look at good FF for the unit or add EA+1 on an ordinary FF just OK value. For reference, everything that has hurricane bolters in EA at this time goes with EA+1, however I think in a high speed skimmer the single good FF value might work out better in the end.

Kyrt wrote:
remove planetfall

In a baseline discussion that's certainly something to consider. However I'll play devils advocate and point out that's the entire point of the unit in fluff and spirit for Marines (spec ops assaulting) and the unit. Basicaly the draw of it. We can also consider that a Planetfall addition could be the specific list version and not the unit in general. Raven Guard planetfalling speeders being an example (yes I know the list is currently being reenvisioned, more that we've got plenty of precedence to altering for a themed list is all)

Kyrt wrote:
Possibly un-twin the other weapons

I'd be apt to actually remove the heavy bolters and/or assault cannons to refocus the unit as an assault monster and not to be sitting out there shooting things.

Kyrt wrote:
Currently it dominates the list and I don't see why it should

This is a Storm Raven not a BA discussion. Let talk about the unit first and not drag this into BA. Now if what you meant is that "Due to the high powered stats, list structures in the BA allow it to dominate a game" then my apologies. I feel that we should then answer the "What's this thing for" question first :)

Kyrt wrote:
This would be a solid skimming high-armour APC with predator-equivalent firepower.

If it should be a gunship then remove the transport option, if it should be a FF support unit then abstract the short-range weapons into its FF value.

QFT :)

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:24 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
Incorrect. The current storm raven stats as I posted above have armour 5+.


And they also have RA, which makes them better than a Pred currently.

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:34 pm 
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Good catch Dave! Redacted above for posterity/educational purposes why I think that might have been added. I also think it's inappropriate for the unit and starts stepping on the whys and hows of Storm Eagles/TBricks. I also havee JUST realized that in almost all the 50+ damn games (most not GT scenario though) I've played with them I didn't use the RA. Probably explains my headspace on them :) it also keeps me of the opinion it is not needed.

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:42 pm 
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Dave, I also just saw you've included TRA in your stats. Looking back in the 40k books (5th edition era so changes could have been made) it's F/S/R 12 all the way around so, again that's reasonable to assert. IIRC the predator 13/11/10, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:50 pm 
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Ya, that was my thinking. That's the Pred I believe. That might be an argument for a 5+ as well though, as Chimera has front armour 12.

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:35 pm 
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I think removing transport would be a serious mistake.... this is the one ground-based transport in the game capable of carting dreads around, that fact alone means it should keep transport abilities..... really given the marine schtick of having multi role vehicles, (MBT with transport, air transport with a tank gun etc) I think having a skimming gunship with transport capability is kinda fitting, basically like the HIND

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:04 pm 
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Ditto. I'd also like to see stay armed liked it is: twin heavy bolters, twin assault cannon and the 4 missiles. Hurricane is an add on so I could go either way on that.

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:10 pm 
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Devil's Advocate:
Split into a Gunship and Transport versions? More reflecting battlefield doctrine than actual capabilities. Some have done the same with the Storm Talon already.

[don't enjoy that but worth thinking about even if it's : NO]

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:17 pm 
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I'd lose the heavy bolters and make the BLOODSTRIKE MISSILES(TM) into an AT5+ missile launcher with 45cm range, keep transport, lose planetfall and back up to 75points each to start with, then rigorously test before messing with points or weapon loadout, also a standard 4+ save thanks, its (arguably) a plane and has vulnerable bits like wings and exposed engines, it doesnt need to be shrugging off plasma shots....

Right now it's just overgunned and will be overwhelming in game, even if costed expensively....

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:33 pm 
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OK having let the dust settle here's what I want us to move forward with Storm Ravens as a set of base stats as right now.
Storm Raven 35cm
AV A: 4+, C: 6+, FF: 3+
Missiles AT5+ 45cm
Twin Assault Cannon AP4+/AT5+ 30cm
Transport 2 tac/dev and 1 dread (termies take up two spots), skimmer

This basically will bring them inline with a predator (which they are in 40k) for livability. They've got TRA but with Kyuss' point of them also having fiddly bits makes it a wash. We're rolling the bolters into increased FF and and gently leading the unit into the role of fast light assault transport, not a tank killer. (There's nothing preventing list specific variants that fulfill a different battlefield role representing a different battle doctrine at play-same with planetfall). The 4 one-shot missiles are simply silly for EA and result in overkill OR too much record keeping for the game for a list that is all about this unit. Making it a single attack is a fine abstraction for now and basically is one of those guided missiles being let off a turn. It's meant to land a BM or set up a things in a cross fire situation, not rock crotches as an uber tank killer.

For BA specifically I'd like them trialed without an independent formation and keep them about getting troops up in the grill of the enemy quickly. I've dropped planetfall for now as to gauge the effectiveness of the unit in this more limited capacity. Upgrad two 2 for 125 (62.5 each) is a good starting place.

Grey Knights already have a custom version off this unit and being an elite of the elite of the elite specialists, are under far different fluff and power curve restrictions that more traditional astartes so that's let for AC to decide (also it's an inquisittion list so I'm keeping my nose out of it :D )

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 Post subject: Re: Storm Raven Unit Discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:28 pm 
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Seems like a good shot to me. The 4 special missiles is kind of like the Space Marine 2nd ed. book keeping I'd rather avoid.

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