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Combat Engineers idea

 Post subject: Re: Combat Engineers idea
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:44 pm 
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Hi!

Actually vehicles can "dig in", it's called hull down. So they should be able to use it. I agree knights, superheavies, titans and praetorians cannot use it.

Dig in orders

A eligible unit on dig in orders gains an immediate -1 to hit it and +1 TO CAF that is cumulative with other modifiers the cover provides.

A unit on dig in orders may not move or fire normally during the turn which it is on dig in orders.

A unit on dig in orders may only fire defensively at units that charge it on first fire orders (snap fire) with no penalty. This is the only type of fore it may engage in during its turn and may do so only once per turn.

Hows that?

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Combat Engineers idea
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:24 pm 
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primarch wrote:
Hi!

Actually vehicles can "dig in", it's called hull down. So they should be able to use it. I agree knights, superheavies, titans and praetorians cannot use it.

Dig in orders

A eligible unit on dig in orders gains an immediate -1 to hit it and +1 TO CAF that is cumulative with other modifiers the cover provides.

A unit on dig in orders may not move or fire normally during the turn which it is on dig in orders.

A unit on dig in orders may only fire defensively at units that charge it on first fire orders (snap fire) with no penalty. This is the only type of fore it may engage in during its turn and may do so only once per turn.

Hows that?

Primarch


Spot on, although I'd drop the reference to first fire in that penultimate sentence. I think it muddies the waters.

How about:

"A unit on dig in orders may only fire defensively at units that engage it in close combat. There is no penalty for shooting at attacking units. This is the only type of fire a unit on Dig-In may engage in during its turn and may do so only once per turn."

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 Post subject: Re: Combat Engineers idea
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:31 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
primarch wrote:
Hi!

Actually vehicles can "dig in", it's called hull down. So they should be able to use it. I agree knights, superheavies, titans and praetorians cannot use it.

Dig in orders

A eligible unit on dig in orders gains an immediate -1 to hit it and +1 TO CAF that is cumulative with other modifiers the cover provides.

A unit on dig in orders may not move or fire normally during the turn which it is on dig in orders.

A unit on dig in orders may only fire defensively at units that charge it on first fire orders (snap fire) with no penalty. This is the only type of fore it may engage in during its turn and may do so only once per turn.

Hows that?

Primarch


Spot on, although I'd drop the reference to first fire in that penultimate sentence. I think it muddies the waters.

How about:

"A unit on dig in orders may only fire defensively at units that engage it in close combat. There is no penalty for shooting at attacking units. This is the only type of fire a unit on Dig-In may engage in during its turn and may do so only once per turn."


Hi!

Sounds good. :)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Combat Engineers idea
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:52 pm 
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After rereading your guy's posts, I am not sure I explained my idea well enough.

Are you envisioning a detachment needing to dig in every turn if they want to continue getting the benefits?

My original thought was that the foxholes would be permanent and useable by any infantry stand that came along later and would basically work like a mini-trench. Hence the original idea that it was something combat engineers would be doing.

Is that what you guys are talking about?

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 Post subject: Re: Combat Engineers idea
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:17 pm 
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ForgottenLore wrote:
After rereading your guy's posts, I am not sure I explained my idea well enough.

Are you envisioning a detachment needing to dig in every turn if they want to continue getting the benefits?

My original thought was that the foxholes would be permanent and useable by any infantry stand that came along later and would basically work like a mini-trench. Hence the original idea that it was something combat engineers would be doing.

Is that what you guys are talking about?


No, once you're dug in, you're dug in. You get the -1 to be hit so long as you don't move from the dug-in position. In other words, you could place your unit on other orders from the next turn and still benefit from the -1 to be hit until you leave the position.

The previous rule was that once you moved the foxhole was lost but I like your idea and have no objection to the dig-in order creating a permanent hidey-hole on the battlefield. In fact, it makes players more likely to use the order. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Combat Engineers idea
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:19 pm 
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ForgottenLore wrote:
After rereading your guy's posts, I am not sure I explained my idea well enough.

Are you envisioning a detachment needing to dig in every turn if they want to continue getting the benefits?

My original thought was that the foxholes would be permanent and useable by any infantry stand that came along later and would basically work like a mini-trench. Hence the original idea that it was something combat engineers would be doing.

Is that what you guys are talking about?


Hi!

No. Its the effect of an order and makeshift, non-permanent positions. Extending this benefit beyond the unit with the order would be unbalanced and prone to abuse.

The problem of making them permanent is one of cost and time. Rules for siege entrenchments and stuff exist, but could not reasonably be constructed during one turn, or during the battle.

If you wanted a permanent emplacement/entrenchment, they would have to be bought and place at the games start. Representing the build up prior to battle.

The only way to may the two is permit the combat engineer to place ONE entrenchment when on dig in orders, but that entrenchment has to be bought as part of army construction (no freebies!).

I would limit it to one segment of trench and perhaps to one such placement in the whole game per combat engineer.

Thoughts?

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Combat Engineers idea
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:21 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
ForgottenLore wrote:
After rereading your guy's posts, I am not sure I explained my idea well enough.

Are you envisioning a detachment needing to dig in every turn if they want to continue getting the benefits?

My original thought was that the foxholes would be permanent and useable by any infantry stand that came along later and would basically work like a mini-trench. Hence the original idea that it was something combat engineers would be doing.

Is that what you guys are talking about?


No, once you're dug in, you're dug in. You get the -1 to be hit so long as you don't move from the dug-in position. In other words, you could place your unit on other orders from the next turn and still benefit from the -1 to be hit until you leave the position.

The previous rule was that once you moved the foxhole was lost but I like your idea and have no objection to the dig-in order creating a permanent hidey-hole on the battlefield. In fact, it makes players more likely to use the order. :)


Hi!

That's perhaps easier than my proposal. This would ONLY apply to a combat engineer. If it uses the dig in order, it can leave that counter where it dug in and units that come after can use it as if they had used that order.

Simple, effective and reasonable. :)

I'm disappointed how quickly this was resolved.... ;) :P

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 Post subject: Re: Combat Engineers idea
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:40 pm 
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In an ideal situation, the benefit of not paying for it is balanced by the fact that it offers less protection than a full blown trench and you have to spend a turn with the Combat Engineers to build it when they could be doing something else.

So when regular troops dig in they are basically just taking cover and making the best use of whatever is lying around but Combat Engineers are able to cobble something together that at least has a decent chance of lasting the battle and that can provide the same benefit to others later in the game?

This is why I initially envisioned it as only something infantry could take advantage of. My understanding of "hull down" for vehicles is that it is really just taking advantage of existing terrain, not laying sandbags and actually digging in. For anything the size of a vehicle that seems to me like the sort of thing that would need to be set up before the battle actually begins and therefore cost points.

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 Post subject: Re: Combat Engineers idea
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:41 pm 
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ForgottenLore wrote:
In an ideal situation, the benefit of not paying for it is balanced by the fact that it offers less protection than a full blown trench and you have to spend a turn with the Combat Engineers to build it when they could be doing something else.

So when regular troops dig in they are basically just taking cover and making the best use of whatever is lying around but Combat Engineers are able to cobble something together that at least has a decent chance of lasting the battle and that can provide the same benefit to others later in the game?

This is why I initially envisioned it as only something infantry could take advantage of. My understanding of "hull down" for vehicles is that it is really just taking advantage of existing terrain, not laying sandbags and actually digging in. For anything the size of a vehicle that seems to me like the sort of thing that would need to be set up before the battle actually begins and therefore cost points.


Hi!

Dug in order will be special order available only for infantry as discussed. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Combat Engineers idea
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:42 pm 
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primarch wrote:
..This would ONLY apply to a combat engineer. If it uses the dig in order, it can leave that counter where it dug in and units that come after can use it as if they had used that order.


That seems like a nice compromise. All units can use Dig-In, but only combat engineers make permanent fox-holes. Units who are not combat engineers benefit from the -1 from turn to turn until such time as they move at which point the fox-hole is lost.

primarch wrote:
Simple, effective and reasonable. :)


I thought that was a description of me there until I read "reasonable"!

primarch wrote:
I'm disappointed how quickly this was resolved.... ;) :P


Don't put the asprin away yet. I'm sure we'll find a brand new headache for you! :P

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 Post subject: Re: Combat Engineers idea
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:49 pm 
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Right then. While I like the whole idea of troops being able to "dig in", I think what we need to realize is the amount of time and effort required to actually dig even a small shell scrape, (deep enough for an infantryman to fight from, lying down).

AGES... Thats how long. For example, to dig a 4 man (fireteam) trench takes a minimum of 24hrs. (unless the engineers show up with specialist digging equipment ie a JCB!).

The rules you propose are still valid however, as it could just represent troops taking more care about how and where they position themselves, taking advantage of every fold in the ground etc. Similarly vehicles as you say can benefit from the rule also, the vehicle crew just positioning their vehicle to maximise their protection, Hull down as primarch says.

I dont think that the positions in this case would remain on the table after the unit moves away though.

If you want trenches etc, then i think they should already exist before the battle starts.

As for the role of combat engineers, there are still some good uses for them, such as erecting bridges and clearing minefields, and assisting with assaulting heavily defended positions with explosive charges, among others. Perhaps the "combat engineer" could be an addition to an existing unit, ie add 1 stand of engineers?

Just some thoughts.....

Steve :)


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 Post subject: Re: Combat Engineers idea
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:50 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
primarch wrote:
..This would ONLY apply to a combat engineer. If it uses the dig in order, it can leave that counter where it dug in and units that come after can use it as if they had used that order.


That seems like a nice compromise. All units can use Dig-In, but only combat engineers make permanent fox-holes. Units who are not combat engineers benefit from the -1 from turn to turn until such time as they move at which point the fox-hole is lost.

primarch wrote:
Simple, effective and reasonable. :)


I thought that was a description of me there until I read "reasonable"!

primarch wrote:
I'm disappointed how quickly this was resolved.... ;) :P


Don't put the asprin away yet. I'm sure we'll find a brand new headache for you! :P


Hi!

I think I'll manage the headache.... ;) ;D

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Combat Engineers idea
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:16 pm 
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yorkie wrote:
Right then. While I like the whole idea of troops being able to "dig in", I think what we need to realize is the amount of time and effort required to actually dig even a small shell scrape, (deep enough for an infantryman to fight from, lying down).

AGES... Thats how long. For example, to dig a 4 man (fireteam) trench takes a minimum of 24hrs. (unless the engineers show up with specialist digging equipment ie a JCB!).

The rules you propose are still valid however, as it could just represent troops taking more care about how and where they position themselves, taking advantage of every fold in the ground etc. Similarly vehicles as you say can benefit from the rule also, the vehicle crew just positioning their vehicle to maximise their protection, Hull down as primarch says.

I dont think that the positions in this case would remain on the table after the unit moves away though.

If you want trenches etc, then i think they should already exist before the battle starts.

As for the role of combat engineers, there are still some good uses for them, such as erecting bridges and clearing minefields, and assisting with assaulting heavily defended positions with explosive charges, among others. Perhaps the "combat engineer" could be an addition to an existing unit, ie add 1 stand of engineers?

Just some thoughts.....

Steve :)


Hi!

Understood. There will be a "loose" interpretation of time scale here regarding its use. It would not necessarily mean digging holes. Just using whatever terrain is available to its fullest (or even lying down when there is none).

I like the idea of adding them to a unit. That makes more sense.

Primarch

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