Hazzah - at long last I have my list ready for the Minotaurs chapter to post up and share. I had to write it up on a spreadsheet on my tablet and it was neceserry to do the list and the unit stats separately. It's a list that tries to represent a modern SM army, incorporating many of the newer GW and FW units, so there are more options than the codex list, but I want to balance it anyway and for there to be pluses and minuses compared to the codex list.
Attachment:
Minotaurs Army List.xls [16 KiB]
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Attachment:
Minotaurs Reference.xls [27 KiB]
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Design notesThese ended up pretty wordy, so feel free to skip to the list if you like, but I wanted to explain my design choices, mention relevant bits of background for those less familiar with them from the FW Badab books and pre-empt possible criticisms. I have generally used the stats and costs from the codex list with Dobbsy's trial changes.
Archilles:
Included since the Minotaurs are siege specialists and it is the siege land Raider of choice. The Archilles' background states them to be rare outside of the Imperial Fists (and their successors) and the Adeptus Mechanicus Ordo Reductor. The Minotaurs are neither, but their background talks about them being able to resupply and equip themselves with the best gear and equipment much more easily than other chapters (the background links them to the High Lords of Terror, implying they may operate on their command). FW painted their Achilles as a Minotaurs one and an apocalypse formation in the Badab book shows they have at least 4 Achilles amongst their vehicles. I have differed slightly from the Imperial Fists stats for the Achilles in giving it FF3+ rather than FF4+, as that doesn't do justice to the armament. A single multi-melta armed Land Speeder or Thunderfire Cannon has FF5+ so surely a vehicle with a full five of these weapons deserves more than just one better firefight? Costwise 100 may be ok in the IF list without aircraft to deploy them, but here it would be too cheap, so I've gone for 125.
Caestus Assault Ram:
They are very appropriate for the list, to carry the many Terminators and to ram them into combat. In case you're not familiar with it a Caestus can carry 2 stands of marine infantry or can carry 2 stands of Terminators - unlike other transports the Terminators do not take up 2 slots. This is due to the design of the craft and the special protective clamps it encloses each passanger in to survive the ram impact. The stats are appropriate, but I'm concerned that their points costs - which i have taken from their only existing use in the Raven Guard list - may be too cheap. Terminators transported in Land Raiders aren't taken that often because 650 points is a lot for one unit, but you can transport the same in 2 Caestus for just 475 points. They would have only 5+ Reinforced Armour, but be faster skimmers, have Planetfall and add 2 MW4+ shooting and 2 5+ MW FF attacks to the formation, as well as 2 one-shot 1BP barrages. Personally I would have thought 150 or 175 to be appropriate for 2, but it sounds like it's been playtested a lot as is and found ok, so I'll run with it and see.
Captain:
There was a lot of discussion a while back around how the Captain is the worst of the 4 SM characters and rarely taken, as the Commander ability isn't that useful and the abilities of the Chaplain or Librarian are better. Which is a shame as, by the background, there would be a Captain with every 100 Marines, so you'd expect to see 1-2 in a 3,000 point army. Some ideas were mooted to fix this, but none were adopted for the moment, in favour of other changes first. I'm going to try testing the Captain at +35 points in this list instead and see how it goes. I aim to play roughly 50/50 Minotaurs and Codex SM, so will be able to compare.
Heavy Assault Carrier:
The Minotaurs flagship, the
Daedelos Krata, is obviously something different from a Battlebarge. For the moment it's statted identically to a Battlebarge, just with a different name, but this could change. If any of you have the relevant Badab book (unfortunately I lost my electronic copy in a flood and don't was to risk downloading now with only access to mobile internet) can you check if there are stats for a Heavy Assault Carrier amongst the new BFG ship rules in it? I don't think there are, but can't remember for sure. Now that there's a model for Moloc the next FW book featuring the Minotaurs will likely have him leading the force and hopefully have a picture of what the craft looks like in the page showing the forces fighting, which could give us more to go on.
Helios:
The Minotaurs use a lot of Land Raiders and the Helios is another appropriate pattern for sieges.
Redeemer:
The Minotaurs use a lot of Land Raiders and the Redeemer is another appropriate pattern for sieges.
Dreadnoughts:
Minotaurs use a lot of Dreadnoughts and have the Siege Dreadnought in the list for 65 points. I originally wanted to modify the Dreadnought stats as they're miss-representative, but will stick with the existing stats.
I have a problem with the Net-EA Dreadnought stats, in that there is really no justification for it having a 3+ save - in 40k it has roughly equivalent armour to a Predator, correctly translated to EpicA as the 4+ in the rulebook. The unit was recognised as being sub-par, so the change was made, but IMO the wrong one, that distorts the capabilities of the unit. An alltogether better option could be to reduce the points and so I am reverting them to 4+ armour and testing 35 points for the Hellfire and Tactical Dreadnoughts (50 for 1, 75 for 2 could be an alternative). Siege Dreadnoughts are also in and 4+, though they are more powerful so costed 50 (I'm considering 65 but will try them at 50 initially).Imperial Navy:
The Minotaurs are even more independant than other chapters, the "Minotaurs possess a reputation for being unusually xenophobic Astartes, even for the Imperium, as well as often unreliable combatants who do not work well with other Imperial military units." Allies would not be appropriate for the list. However recent 40k has provided two new SM aircraft - the Storm Talon and the Storm Eagle and the former makes an excellent Thunderbolt counts as, while he latter makes a very good Marauder counts as (assuming it to be acting in a fire support role during this battle and not using its transport abilities). They could be statted up properly in the list, but I think the counts as is an ellegant solution to keep the list pure, without adding more new units.
Spartan:
This gigantic (newly re-imagined by FW) big brother of a Land Raider can carry 5 stands or 2 Terminators in the list. Their background states "Many Space Marine Chapters maintain these huge war machines as part of their arsenal and deploy them into the most hellish and destructive warzones, where even the mighty Land Raider would be torn asunder." - sounds like the environment in most games of Epic? - it then goes on to add "Their greater transport capacity also finds particular favour amongst those Chapters who possess many suits of Terminator armour such as the Minotaurs", hence them being in the list. I costed an upgrade of 2 Spartans at 275, 25 cheaper than the equivalent and similar 4 Land Raiders, to account for the net loss of the two twin-linked Heavy Bolters and to make them worth taking. I considered reducing the cost of a single one to 125, but concluded 150 is more appropriate. If taking other vehicles in the formation also then there's the advantage that the enemy is forced to choose whether to direct fire at the WE of non WE targets, potentially slightly reducing their kill rates as kills don't carry over. It needed some way to get to the surface of a planet, so I made it carryable by Landing Craft, in place of 2 Land Raiders.
Supreme Commander:
Unlike his counterparts in other space marine lists, the Minotaurs Supreme Commander is limited to being added only to an Assault Terminator unit - representing chapter master Asterion Moloc himself. The Minotaurs are codex in many ways, but unusual in that they prefer to fight with their entire chapter strength at once wherever possible, to maximise and concentrate their destructive power. They overwhelm their enemies with armour and numbers and are less concerned about the fate of individual marines than other chapters. The list can be assumed to represent the chapter fighting together and therefore Chapter Master Moloc would be the supreme commander, whether he is fighting amongst the particular portion of the chapter represented by the army on the board, or if he is off board/game, but likely fighting nearby. Moloc himself wears Terminator armour and he fights accompanied by Assault Terminators with spears and round Storm Shields. Another justification for Minotaurs armies without Moloc being a bit less reliable than normal SMs is that the Minotaurs short-cut the usual lengthy process of tactical instruction and battlefield raining of a SM scout, using "extremely high levels of programmed psycho-indoctrination and neuro-cerebral surgery" instead during training and periodically again for full SMs. This could also add justification for them being a bit less tactically on the ball than regular chapters. Adding a Supreme Commander or not to your force becomes a lot harder a decision that for regular SMs; as does whether to deploy him on board for the re-roll initially or to teleport him in, but risk loosing him in the heart of battle? A supreme leading from the front is the way they are depicted in the background and I think there's a good case for this limitation for the Minotaurs.
Scouts:
0-1 as the background states the Minotaurs to have few of them and for not very long, due to the accelerated nature of their training, with an emphasis on brain surgery and hynopsis. The Scout-specific Land Speeder Storm transports replace Rhinos and Razorbacks as it has never been canon for Scouts to use these outside of epic. A fast, agile Land Speeder transport makes a lot more sense than Rhinos/Razorbacks magically scouting just due a lick of camo paint.
Terminators:
Assault Terminators added as they fit the Minotaurs tactics and prediliction for killing fellow SMs. The formation has been made 1+ since the Minotaurs are noted to have enough Terminator Armour to equip their full first company with it and that they make a lot of use of Terminators in their armies.
Thunderfire Cannons:
An important part of the modern 40k SM codex list and a weapon especially appropriate and useful for sieges. I bumped the points up a fair bit from the Imperial Fists list to 75 points for 1 and 275 points for the formation of 4 (I very nearly put them at 300). The stats seem accurate to how it should be but it looks very powerful and I believe 250 is too cheap for 4. That's the same cost as a Devestator detachment and the Thunderfires in comparison have 60cm range, AP4+ and a flexible choice of Ignore Cover or Disrupt with their shots. 1-2 formations of them garrisoning on overwatch could be a nasty and disruptive prospect for the enemy. They are more flexible in this list also, as the defensive Imperial Fists list doesn't have Thunderhawks or Spacecraft, but here the Thunderfire Cannons can be transported by Thunderhawks and Landing Craft or deployed by Drop Pod (it didn't have Rhino transports to swap for them as per the transports rule, so I added in a free Drop Pods upgrade. Armour 5+ is way OTT for a single SM crewing a gun - even if the techmarine has fancy artificer armour, on this scale the difference between a 2+ save and a 3+ save on one SM is negligible and this should really have a maximum of a 6+ save like the Tarantula or Rapier in the Skaros list (particularly as a Rapier has 2 crew vs the Thunderfire's 1). I've left it at 5+ as in the IF list for the moment but would like to get peoples thoughts on changing it to 6+.
Titans:
Not available. This is to reflect the highly autonomous way they operate and their mistrust of other Imperial organisations. I don't mean to imply the Minotaurs never fight with Titan allies, just that it likely to be rarer than for normal SM and that with the list having so many extra units over the codex list it is appropriate for it to have some downsides.
Thunderhawk Transporter:
Added since the Minotaurs are a fleet based chapter that deploys particularly high quantities of armoured vehicles and are less caring that normal of losses, such as when using them to deploy directly to a battle. They aren't anything special or rare either - they weren't created yet when the Epic ruebook was written, but THTs are as common as regular Thunderhawks and used by all chapters. I have given them fire arcs for their weapons on either side, as they wouldn't be able to see or shoot things on the other side and I think the lack of fire arcs is a mistake. I'll open another thread to discuss this. Costwise I think the Net-EA ones may be too cheap now that the armour is the proper 4+ Reinforced. I think Epic-UK might have them a bit too expensive at 200 for 1 (with 1 extra available for 100). I think I'm going to try testing them at 175 for 1 with up to 2 extra at 100 points each. I'll welcome feedback on the cost and it's something I'll need to playtest a lot to see if it's appropriate or needs adjusting.
Overall theme: besiegers, aggressive assaults with Terminators and armoured vehicles.
Advantages: lot of extra options with the Land Raider variants, Spartans, Assault Terminators, Thunderfire Cannons, Siege Dreadnoughts, Thunderhawk Transporters and Caestus Assault Rams. Cheaper Captain and regular Dreadnoughts.
Disadvantages: no Titans, supreme commander can be added to Assault Terminator unit only, Scouts 0-1, Scouts don't have access to snipers or free transports and have to pay 100 for 4 Land Speeder Storms if wanted to be mobile, forced restrictions to take Terminators and armoured vehicles formations, Dreadnoughts reduced to 4+ armour.
Let me know what you think and if you spot any typos or errors.