So I had the pleasure of watching my guard get a kicking from Rug last night and afterwards we were discussing some potential tricks to use in epic

Rug suggested for example, purchasing a griffon upgrade for a company, then only deploying a single one, allowing the company to garrison and lob out a 5+/5+ barrage (when sustaining)

Another example is to upgrade your eldar guardians with wraithguard, then leave a few stands of guardians in the figure case, hey presto you now have air assaulting wraithguard!

These ideas may be old hat to most of the experienced players here, but I'm wondering how people feel about their potential 'gameyness'? to me it feels a little bit like exploiting the rules (and as a reformed warhammer player, I've done my fair share of rules lawyering/exploiting....)

but then on the other hand, you've paid the points for the units you haven't used, so does that outweigh/compensate for the advantage gained?

I'd be interested to see what people (especially tournament organisers/players) think..... (oh and I have no problem with any of this, I don't think it's against the rules, or perhaps even the spirit of the game, it just feels... weird) would you consider marking someone down for sportsmanship, or would you think 'hmmm that's a smart idea, I'll give that one a go next time!'?

For the record I have absolutely no problem with Rug's way of playing the game, he's a great guy and player, who after defeating me took the time to offer advice on potential mistakes and suggestions for improvement

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If you want to pay 350pts to get yourself a pretty terrible arty formation that can be easily AT-sniped, go ahead. :-)

Rug needs to admit that Griffons as upgrades are just rubbish :-)

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well it looks like the reviewed EUK lists have griffons as a 50 point upgrade, and surely if you garrison them deep in a wood or ruins, the griffon can indirectly fire out and not be shot in return....? plus you've got 12 stands of infantry, probably a comissar too.... I don't think they look that bad on paper

I may be wrong, and don't even own any griffons to test it with.....forgive my noobishness

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They're 100pts on the copy of the rulebook on their website.

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yeah the review is coming out in June I believe

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Of course Rug's greatest trick is to realise that he is losing and spend half an hour over a move

If people want to leave a models behind I have no problem with that as they are cutting back on what they have spent their points on, but I would insist on them starting with blast markers for having lost units.

Air assaulting Wraithguard, hasn't Rug seen the Iyanden list?

I often played with Griffons as an upgrade to my Mech Inf to boost them over the cost of my Reg HQ and the BP they provided was a useful addition, but mainly they ran out at the front to take the first AT shots and protect my Chimeras.

Griffons are very useful as an activation in the Ulani list where you can purchase 3 for 100pts as a light artillery battery. One day I'd like to see the formation with a chance to upgrade to 6 for 200/250pts as I think they would suddenly become a very interesting formation to play with. Also dust off your Hellhounds for the updated list

It's good to hear my 5 years of complaining about them has worked. :-)

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Five years you say, sorry Ben, must have tuned out 6 years ago :p

It's ok, I wouldn't listen to me either.

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In response to the original question, there has been considerable debate over whehether armies should be allowed to discard units at the start of the game in order to gain some tactical advantage. There are adherents to both sides of the argument, some saying that it is 'gamey' while others feel that the tactical gain is usually balanced out by the cost.

If you are considering trying something like this, I suggest agreeing with your opponent beforehand and especially checking with the tournament organisers as I do not think there clear cut answer.

interesting idea, I quite like that!



true but it's unexpected in a Biel-Tan list......

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But if you wanted to do it at the start you would have to declare it before garrisons and that would give your opponent the chance to set up ready for it, although I would say that it would be a better tactic with Ulthwe & two Farseers.

I'm not laughing. Not thrilled about being the subject of a thread called "gameyness" either.

Why would a formation ever start the game with blast markers, marines don't start with BM when they don't take their Rhinos. There is a significant cost to this "gamey" behaviour, it's a massive gamble, so is it really "gamey"? I've been to a few tournaments, I could reminisce about actual gamey practices I've fallen foul of and mention names, are we doing that here or doing some rules development? I tested leaving 2 Griffons off the table in order to garrison for the NetEA SL list.

Yes, I've seen the EUK Iyanden list, I did contribute to the testing after all. Quite disappointed not to have had the opportunity to contribute to the Guard testing since I use them in EUK events so frequently, I even made a point of using the under performing units last year.

You've had access to the EUK playtest area+list.

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Come on smile, we all know that you are a great player and have great ideas. I always look forward to our games.