|
iblisdrax
|
Post subject: News on Mars/moon...  Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 9:54 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
 |
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2003 10:54 pm
Posts: 3381
Location: First star to the right, and straight on till morning.
|
|
In my opinion, it has been way too long since an administration has activily sought to push for more space funding/exploration. The space shuttle was supposed to be the first step on the road to inexpensive(relatively) cargo/passenger travel to low earth orbit, ie, the space station which should have been finished years ago. It is true that there are many pressing problems down here, but historically, space exploration has sparked the human mind and soul. As fare as the cost goes, the Apollo program was hugely expensive in terms of money and resources, for very little in return. If the current proposal pans out, the returns would be much larger.
my .02,
iblisdrax
_________________
"Have Leman Reuss, will travel"
"Hallo. My name is Indigo Montoya. You killed my father prepare to die!"
|
|
| Top |
|
 |
|
Gandalf the Grey
|
Post subject: News on Mars/moon... Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:28 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
 |
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2003 4:23 pm
Posts: 789
Location: Tampa, Florida
|
| Quote (CyberShadow @ 10 2004 Jan.,12:29) | As far as I am concerned, there is very little more important than the space program. It has been underfunded and continuously cut for way too long! ? |
This statement pisses me off simply because Space. the Moon, Mars, etc is hostile enviroments that man CANNOT live in without extraordinary efforts. Not only that, with the gravitational pull so different from Earth, humans in those environments for any real length of time will suffer from physical problems or mutations. I think it was said that if man did move to Mars, by the third generation humans on Mars would looks so alienish because of the effect gravity has on the body. It would take major rehibitation for them to even walk on Earth. I think a Russian cosmonaunt spent over a year in rehab getting over the effects of space in their space station Mir.
But most importantly, it is the money that is spent on it. It seems weird coming from a tech guy, but I dont get much from Space. I certainly wont get the chance to go up there so I dont care. Famine, Disease, and Polution are major problems that are very much under-funded or under-researched. Feed everyone in America and then go to the moon. Clean up the gettos and we can go to Mars. This doesn't really benefit mankind, it just makes us take our minds off the fact that if the lights go out for a lengthy period of time, we turn into animals.
Unfortunately, if the is a reason to go, it is just to get established before everyone else does, so as far as I am concerned, the US might as well start carving up real estate. There will be war in space, there will be war on the moon, and there will be war on mars, or wherever mankind goes. I know many of you are not from the US, but from a nationalist point of view, I want the United States to be ahead of everyone else there. I don't even know what we will get from it. . . minerals? Precious metals? How are you going to get them back into the atmosphere? Parachute?_________________ Please check out my website: http://www.system17.com
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Tas
|
Post subject: News on Mars/moon... Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 9:35 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
 |
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:01 am
Posts: 7823
Location: Sydney, NSW
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
vanvlak
|
Post subject: News on Mars/moon... Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 9:44 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
 |
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2003 7:52 am
Posts: 10348
Location: Malta
|
Hi all,
I'm in the pro-space camp:
1 - humans have continuously progressed (well, sort of...) by means of exploration and research, and space is an incredible frontier which to ignore would be against human evolutionary nature
2 - the benefits are there: technological innovations, development of materials for space which are now finding use here on Earth, development of new materials in microgravity, and eventually, although still far from the present, yes, mineral resources. Getting them to Earth might not even be necessary, as they could be processed (e.g.) on the Moon. This is of course far in the future, but...
3 - Knowledge derived from exploration of Mars can help us learn more about our own planet, and about the solar system. Knowledge per se is nice, but this also helps us understand what the future of the Earth as a planet within our solar system could be.
4 - Eventually, local resources could be augmented by space resources - again, far in the future, but...
5 - The Earth is not eternal - a nicely sized asteroid could wipe us out entirely, and some day the survival of humanity could depend on human life on anothger planet. It could be a very different humanity, but it will still be humanity, and could be the only humanity around. Our distant ancestors looked very different from us, but that does not make them less precious to us, for without them we would not be here. This too is a long way away of course, but...
6 - recapitulation of buts: but we do have to start somewhere. Baby steps, yes, but we have to begin.
Gandalf, you are right in stating that there are several problems we need to solve here on Earth, but there are several other much higher budgets which benefit humanity (as a whole) far less. The war budget: I'm not arguing about any specific war: but a reduction in spending on arms and on military operations could do wonders. I am speaking of tonnes of food going to waste in the lack of a fair and effective distribution. Of milliopns spent on political propaganda, or advertising, or - wargames?  GUILTY! (ok, not millions, but you get the idea). And saying "I certainly wont get the chance to go up there so I dont care." is unjustified, I believe. You are, I hope, not suffering from hunger, but you care about that - and good for you, I agree entirely! I feel it would not be fair on future generations to abandon space.
Re the billboards - now that WOULD be a waste, and an exercise in uglification. As far as I know the idea has been banned, and I fervently hope it stays that way!
Sorry for the long panygeric, guys! Cheers.
_________________
Back from oblivion (again)?
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
CyberShadow
|
Post subject: News on Mars/moon... Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 1:52 pm |
|
| Swarm Tyrant |
 |
 |
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9350
Location: Singapore
|
| Quote (Gandalf the Grey @ 11 2004 Jan.,02:28) |
Space. the Moon, Mars, etc is hostile enviroments that man CANNOT live in without extraordinary efforts. Not only that, with the gravitational pull so different from Earth, humans in those environments for any real length of time will suffer from physical problems or mutations. I think it was said that if man did move to Mars, by the third generation humans on Mars would looks so alienish because of the effect gravity has on the body. It would take major rehibitation for them to even walk on Earth. I think a Russian cosmonaunt spent over a year in rehab getting over the effects of space in their space station Mir.
|
Yes, space, the Moon and Mars are hostile environments... that is kind of the point. Personally, I also feel that the oceans of this planet are also way under-explored.
The Cosmonaut spent over a year on Mir following an extensive exercise program to prove that it could be done, in preparation for a Mars mission.
The point is that we, as a species, NEED to keep pushing the boundries. We have to rise to challenges and to find out what is out there. Without a mission to Mars, there will be no further exploration of the outside galaxy. What if Columbus had said:
"Well, it is raining now... and we dont know what is out there... and we are quite comfortable... what could we ever need that we dont have? I think that I will just stay home."
I dont get much from Space. I certainly wont get the chance to go up there so I dont care.
|
You mean you dont get anything from space exploration aside from teflon, digital watches, even technological advances. More development has come out of the space effort than the second world war. And that gave us a lot of off-shoot technology.
There are two driving forces in human nature to push them on to develop and expand - war and exploration. Given a choice, I would rather that we looked up and outwards.
There are a number of problems on this planet, I dont think that anyone could deny that. But take a look at the defence budget! Sure, we need more money for a load of areas, but in my opinion Space should be seriously high up te list. I dont think that we should ignore the prolems that we have, and I dont think that we should cut the funding for 'dirt side' problems.
I dont think that this world will ever be perfect. There will never be a time when we are able to turn around and say 'right, Earth is good, now lets have a look out there'. Even if we do, the technology wont be available then and will take decades at least to develop.
Yes, there will likely be turf wars on other planets. But, it is a completely different world and still no-one owns the Moon. Even now, we are seeing more collaboration in space missions than in almost anything else. Think about all the different nationalities that have set foot on Mir, or the range of nationalities in a few space missions.
As for mining and minerals, I guess that I dont feel that 'what can we plunder' is a good reason for going, and certainly not a better reason than 'we need to explore'.
_________________ https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond. https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.
|
| Top |
|
|
|
iblisdrax
|
Post subject: News on Mars/moon... Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:54 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2003 10:54 pm
Posts: 3381
Location: First star to the right, and straight on till morning.
|
|
As I said before, space exploration sparks the human soul. We allways need our heros, and our dreams, and to take away that is to lose a little something in all of us.
my 2cents,
iblisdrax
_________________
"Have Leman Reuss, will travel"
"Hallo. My name is Indigo Montoya. You killed my father prepare to die!"
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Jackhammer
|
Post subject: News on Mars/moon... Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 5:22 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2003 9:36 pm
Posts: 466
|
|
C/S: As for mining and minerals, I guess that I dont feel that 'what can we plunder' is a good reason for going, and certainly not a better reason than 'we need to explore'.
While I agree with all your other points, don't knock all those resources. All the exploration/knowledge spinoffs/general human activity needs a solid foundation of resources to build off. I'd rather they strip mined a asteroid than razed more vast tracks of the Amazon or nature reserves in Alaska. How they go about gathering them is a whole other story.
Jackhammer
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Legion 4
|
Post subject: News on Mars/moon... Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 5:52 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
 |
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Jimbo
|
Post subject: News on Mars/moon... Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 7:21 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
 |
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:01 pm
Posts: 3495
Location: Wessex
|
| Quote (Gandalf the Grey @ 11 2004 Jan.,02:28) | | It seems weird coming from a tech guy, but I dont get much from Space. I certainly wont get the chance to go up there so I dont care. |
don't get much
computer miniaturisation and the stand-alone PC are the direct result of the Apollo missions where they needed a small light computer (true it wasn't very powerful, but it did show you didn't need a mainframe to have a computer) so I guess you typed your message on a typewriter?
Boeing (and I guess you may fly at some point) are only in business because of the extenstive government subsidies they get (only the US govt calls it NASA funding)._________________ Jimbo
Felix's Gaming Pages
Felix's Gaming Pages Blog
Almost Always Right...
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Legion 4
|
Post subject: News on Mars/moon... Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:09 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
|
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
primarch
|
Post subject: News on Mars/moon... Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 10:59 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
 |
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
|
|
Hi!
There are always benefits from such space exploration, be it direct or not. Many problems need be solved for such great task and inevitably they will have other practical application.
Primarch
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
CyberShadow
|
Post subject: News on Mars/moon... Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 2:57 pm |
|
| Swarm Tyrant |
|
|
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9350
Location: Singapore
|
| Quote (Jackhammer @ 11 2004 Jan.,16:22) | C/S: As for mining and minerals, I guess that I dont feel that 'what can we plunder' is a good reason for going, and certainly not a better reason than 'we need to explore'.
While I agree with all your other points, don't knock all those resources. All the exploration/knowledge spinoffs/general human activity needs a solid foundation of resources to build off. I'd rather they strip mined a asteroid than razed more vast tracks of the Amazon or nature reserves in Alaska. How they go about gathering them is a whole other story. |
I agree, and I am certainly not knocking them. I simply dont feel that these are the only, or even most important, reasons for going. For example, I heard with interest that a possible Mars mission will carry a (relatively) small amout of Hydrogen, which can be mixed with the gases on Mars to produce Methane gas to provide fuel for the return trip, therefore reducing the payload on the way out.
I am sure that Asteroids and the like are able to provide minerals and 'wealth' far better than on Earth, once we have the trade routes set up!_________________ https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond. https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.
|
|
| Top |
|
|
Absolutely. If no one was in the space race I wouldn't care that much. But since we are competing with other nations that frankly I don't trust anyway, might as well do it for military reasons first and foremost. No one has any idea what where all this is going to get us, if anything substantial at all, and if it is going to get us something, I'd think my country should protect their interests.
Curious point of view, but in for a penny in for a pound? It could also be like the Antarctica treatise where ALL military presence is banned forever...
Please Tas. No one wants Antartica. If global warming drives everyone to the poles you'll see weapons there overnight. If it turns up to have major oil reserves, someone will come and claim them.
This notion that there won't be or shouldn't be weapons in Space is niave, and I hear it all the time. Whoever controls the space around Earth will control this planet. The same for any other planets. Look at mankind, what it has done, and it doesn't take much to conclude what it is going to do too.
Mankind hasn't changed the slightest bit in 2000 years. Technically we are more advanced, but as creatures we are a screwed up race. Animals don't treat each other as bad as we do, and I love hearing idiots say "we are not animals." No, we are a lot worse. And for every example you give me where mankind has shown it's great character and it's ability to achieve great things I can show where man pocesses a sickness that, like I said before, takes very little to come out.
Meanwhile we are discussing how great these Mars Rovers are doing, civil war is slaughtering thousands in Africa and disease kills millions every year. "But we've got these great photographs of the Mars surface!" Lets slap ourselves on the back! Give me a break. That is why I am hostile to the amount of money that goes into this.
I know space exploration has to be done. I know mankind will end up there in some sense. I know there will be war there too, so I want my country to be able to defend it's interests. Do I think it is worth it money wise? Definately not yet. Someday sure, and that is the only reason why I give it any green light.
And the notion that if it wasn't for Columbus there would be no America is nuts. Native Americas were here long before he got here and so were the Vikings, and maybe even asians in California. Someone else would have made it too. And while the advances that have been made for Space exploration have helped us greatly, to say that I wouldn't have a PC if it wasn't for NASA is far fetched. that is like saying without Space exploation we wouldn't have velcro, whish wasn't even invented by NASA or for that purpose. The computer was invented to calculate coordinates for artillery, and then it has gone into many different directions and uses since.
Sorry if I seem so negative, but while I enjoy living in a capitalist society and feel there is no better efficient system, I am blown away by some of the waste. Ever look at a cereal box? Ever think about the time and energy that went in to designing it? Deciding everything that goes into it an so forth? It is amazing what has to be done to please our species. Add many many many more billions and now you've got the space program.
_________________
Please check out my website:
http://www.system17.com
?... 
?
! Never mind ...