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Marine Air Support - up the cost

 Post subject: Re: Marine Air Support - up the cost
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:47 pm 
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Dobbsy wrote:
TBH I don't think Tbolts (or Barracudas for that matter) are really a problem whether they go first or not. They have minimal effect other than to place BMs more often than not. They aren't a game winning unit by any means.


CAP is not used to place BM.

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 Post subject: Re: Marine Air Support - up the cost
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:11 am 
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Is CAP that big a problem though? Is that the issue here?


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 Post subject: Re: Marine Air Support - up the cost
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:21 am 
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The issue is not how powerfull, or whether they activate or not. The issue is that they are a cheap activation, and currently the same as Scouts / Assaults! The question is whether they should be the equivalent cost or not.

Marines need to be able to time when they launch their attacks, and in Turn #1 this usually means using some cheaper activations, OW, CAP etc to time the activation of major formations etc. Now, if they were 200, the Marine player would be choosing between air-protection and Speeders / Bikes, and looking to Scouts / Assaults as an activation boost


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 Post subject: Re: Marine Air Support - up the cost
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:09 am 
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Ginger wrote:
The issue is not how powerfull, or whether they activate or not. The issue is that they are a cheap activation, and currently the same as Scouts / Assaults! The question is whether they should be the equivalent cost or not.

Marines need to be able to time when they launch their attacks, and in Turn #1 this usually means using some cheaper activations, OW, CAP etc to time the activation of major formations etc. Now, if they were 200, the Marine player would be choosing between air-protection and Speeders / Bikes, and looking to Scouts / Assaults as an activation boost

Which in the end means they're using a 150 point formation (with a somewhat lesser impact on the game because it doesn't assault and it doesn't hold any ground like Scouts do) to do exactly the same thing. Why should a 2+ initiative unit doing it, be more expensive than a 1+ initiative unit doing it?

It seems the issue of "cheap activations" is more a problem of allowing more allies than marine formations, which to me seems to say a lower cap on Allies is more needed than a cost increase. Reduce the option for people to even take 3+ TBolt formations by limiting allies is better than hamstringing players who play "fairly" (and I use that term loosely) with the list. All that said, I'm not convinced that 3+ TBolt formations doesn't do more harm to the player using them as he's reducing his "effective" formation numbers on the ground. Sure it's a boost to activations but aircraft don't hold ground and that's a problem late game when your useful formations are broken or destroyed.


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 Post subject: Re: Marine Air Support - up the cost
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:37 am 
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Are you serious in saying that you do not see the benefit of Thunderbolts on CAP at the start of a battle?

It can change the whole strategy for the opponent with such a simple activation. At SR5, it is worth more than how the IG can use it - simple as that.

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 Post subject: Re: Marine Air Support - up the cost
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:29 am 
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Just to make clear to anyone new reading - don't feel you have to cap with your thunderbolts, straffing exposed garrissons is also fun. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Marine Air Support - up the cost
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:41 am 
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Quote:
They have minimal effect other than to place BMs more often than not.

For their cost they're excellent at shooting up mixed type or LV formations.

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 Post subject: Re: Marine Air Support - up the cost
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:34 pm 
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frogbear wrote:
Are you serious in saying that you do not see the benefit of Thunderbolts on CAP at the start of a battle?

Nope. Not saying that at all. I'm saying that of course it's handy but it's not overwhelming and I don't think it needs a price rise. Doing so only screws the people who don't powergame the list. It's never really been an issue in my mind (see my reasoning in previous posts) and it really surprises me that it's actually become one now.


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 Post subject: Re: Marine Air Support - up the cost
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:43 pm 
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Dobbsy wrote:
Doing so only screws the people who don't powergame the list.


We are talking tournament lists, not the home based games. To think people will play 'friendly' lists in tournaments is closing your eyes to reality.

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 Post subject: Re: Marine Air Support - up the cost
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:46 pm 
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Also such an attitude screws over tournament style games. Designing a list with a load of holes doesn't cut it, especially when they can be fixed. Since these are from the outset designed as tournament lists and it is quite clear that they are, that defines the conversation about them. The tournament army lists are discussed with tournaments in mind. Not friendly home play. Indeed friendly home play is a completely different discussion adn can be answered with guidelines as much as army lists.


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 Post subject: Re: Marine Air Support - up the cost
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 1:14 pm 
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The_Real_Chris wrote:
Also such an attitude screws over tournament style games. Designing a list with a load of holes doesn't cut it, especially when they can be fixed. Since these are from the outset designed as tournament lists and it is quite clear that they are, that defines the conversation about them. The tournament army lists are discussed with tournaments in mind. Not friendly home play. Indeed friendly home play is a completely different discussion adn can be answered with guidelines as much as army lists.


TRC. You should write a book so as I can quote you :)

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 Post subject: Re: Marine Air Support - up the cost
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:36 pm 
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Am I the only one who recalls the overwhelming opinion that Tbolts were useless?

I have a distinct memory of SM players bitching incessantly about how they had no good AA options - the Hunter is too expensive and the Tbolt nearly non-functional. There were several fights over whether Tbolts should be cheaper during the rules review. For 2+ years, the only people who said anything nice about the Tbolts were me and TRC.

I realize that strategies and the metagame evolve over time, but given the history of see-sawing opinions on a large array of units I'm extremely hesitant to consider a price change.


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 Post subject: Re: Marine Air Support - up the cost
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:43 pm 
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Quote:
Am I the only one who recalls the overwhelming opinion that Tbolts were useless?


Really?

Fair enough, then.

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 Post subject: Re: Marine Air Support - up the cost
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:44 pm 
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Wasn't that pre the -1 to hit when intercepting?

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