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(NETEA) Chaos LatD+BL
Steve54
 Post subject: Re: (NETEA) Chaos LatD+BL
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:59 pm 
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BlackLegion wrote:
nealhunt wrote:
opposed.

Quote:
Daemon engines - remove INV
LoB - remove INV
Plague Tower - remove INV

Does "Daemon engines" only refer to the Khorne Daemon Assault Engines where the Invulnerable Save was added on top of RA? Or are you talking about dropping Invulnerable Save across all engines?


I second that question. Removing Invulnerable Save from ALL Daemon Engines could have quite some impact on all Chaos lists.


Should be daemon assault engines (1st post edited)

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frogbear
 Post subject: Re: (NETEA) Chaos LatD+BL
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:54 pm 
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nealhunt wrote:
Either way, an invulnerable save increases the firepower required to destroy a unit by about 20% across the board. That's in the ballpark of 10% price difference (on the low side, probably). So, the question is whether these changes are reflected in the point costs. For example, the LoB is 400 points, so was it underperforming and only worth 350-375 before Invulnerable was added, or should it be increased to 425-450 after the save?


Without an INV save, I do not see the LoB worth the full 400 points. More like 375 points without really sitting down to do any math.

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frogbear
 Post subject: Re: (NETEA) Chaos LatD+BL
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:17 am 
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Upon reviewing the LoB with Morgan.

How would people feel with the LoB being priced at 350 points within the LatD list?

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frogbear
 Post subject: Re: (NETEA) Chaos LatD+BL
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 7:55 am 
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My experience is the opposite - so we have two divergent views it seems.

I am looking at it as points value which I believe would indicate a reduction is called for.

Seeing we do not have meaningful data on use statistics or healthy debate from a general populace of more than a few die-hards, I would think that general math should rule out here.

Is there any history of abuse that shows why it was placed at 400 points?

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Re: (NETEA) Chaos LatD+BL
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:31 am 
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Just to back up Hena, I've used LoB's in my LatD list when I've been playing with Khorne factions and been happy with the its overall performance. Yes sometimes they get caught by deathstrikes and shadowswords, but they have also made a mess of some Marine armies. I don't see the need for a drop in points.
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AxelFendersson
 Post subject: Re: (NETEA) Chaos LatD+BL
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:25 pm 
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Steve54 wrote:
Dave wrote:
Should the Raptors be 0-4 additional Raptors for 45pts each or for 35pts each?

45pts

Were Raptors really still overpowered at 40 points? A formation of 8 is now almost 20% more expensive than a bike company. I appreciate that they're slightly better than the bikes, but are they really 20% better?

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Re: (NETEA) Chaos LatD+BL
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:20 pm 
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frogbear wrote:
Seeing we do not have meaningful data on use statistics or healthy debate from a general populace of more than a few die-hards, I would think that general math should rule out here.

Is there any history of abuse that shows why it was placed at 400 points?

There is a history with a lot of meaningful data - all the L&D testing.

It's possible for context to make a difference in the value of a unit. However, it is usually quite minor unless it involves deepstrike ability or BP weapons. In this case, neither of those applies. Also, both armies are set up to require a large proportion of infantry and are largely geared towards assault, which helps keep the L&D test results relevant by limiting contextual discrepancies.

In fact, everything seems to indicate that the LoB is more valuable in the World Eater list than in L&D. The LoB has superior stats, with a higher SR and (based on Steve's recommendations) higher Initiative. The World Eater list is more starved for fire support options than L&D, making the LoB's firepower that much more important proportionally. Better stats and more important role in the army would argue for an increase in points, not a decrease.
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Steve54
 Post subject: Re: (NETEA) Chaos LatD+BL
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:28 pm 
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AxelFendersson wrote:
Steve54 wrote:
Dave wrote:
Should the Raptors be 0-4 additional Raptors for 45pts each or for 35pts each?

45pts

Were Raptors really still overpowered at 40 points? A formation of 8 is now almost 20% more expensive than a bike company. I appreciate that they're slightly better than the bikes, but are they really 20% better?


My mistake - after looking at the change document they should be 35 as an upgrade (1st post edited)

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frogbear
 Post subject: Re: (NETEA) Chaos LatD+BL
PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 1:48 am 
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nealhunt wrote:
frogbear wrote:
Seeing we do not have meaningful data on use statistics or healthy debate from a general populace of more than a few die-hards, I would think that general math should rule out here.

Is there any history of abuse that shows why it was placed at 400 points?

There is a history with a lot of meaningful data - all the L&D testing.


I have been reviewing this and find this to have the potential to be incorrect or not as relevant to the discussion.

LatD games for the purpose of games and not for the purpose of reviewing points is not really helpful.

- How many of those games used a LoB?
- How many of those players questioned the points?
- What analysis other than the points provided has there been to state that the LoB is the correct costing in the LatD?

So let me repeat the question:

Is there any history of abuse that shows why it was placed at 400 points?

I still believe it is only worth 350 - 375 in the LatD list. Replies that state "I have used it and it was great" do not really add any meaningful data to justify the points.
You could easily go the other way: If it was so great, why is it not more points?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Re: (NETEA) Chaos LatD+BL
PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 1:55 am 
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I've played against LOB's a half dozen times, they seemed great. Never underperformed.

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frogbear
 Post subject: Re: (NETEA) Chaos LatD+BL
PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 3:14 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
I've played against LOB's a half dozen times, they seemed great. Never underperformed.


As an opponent, I understand this finding. How have you found them for value when using them?

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Re: (NETEA) Chaos LatD+BL
PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 2:41 pm 
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So are these changes now "set in stone" for some while?
Then i will update the Red Corsairs list soon.

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Steve54
 Post subject: Re: (NETEA) Chaos LatD+BL
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:42 am 
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I'll set them 'in stone' tomorrow - with the INV save issues in this thread and anything else that has been brought up. I just thought defilers in BL will need to move to initiative 2 like cult daemon engines have.

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frogbear
 Post subject: Re: (NETEA) Chaos LatD+BL
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:52 am 
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Steve54 wrote:
I just thought defilers in BL will need to move to initiative 2 like cult daemon engines have.


What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Agree

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