Actually any alternative cheap Marine company fantastic, and having a 60cm move unit in company strength is a hugely useful capability for any army.

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Fire bad, tree pretty - Buffy

Not if you suck the big one when you get to where you wanted to go.

Movement only goes so far... wait, that's quite funny.

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

If the marine bikes caf is upgraded to a +3, I hope this will not change the Chaos Bikes caf ? (Chaos bikes caf +2, worse morale 4+ but cost is 100 points for 5).

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Fair players live longer
Epic40k.fr Techpriest

Hmmmm, well IF they did, the price would have to increase accordingly to 150 points.

Is it...

a) ...you like the Chaos Marine Bikes at this cost?

b) ...you fear the Chaos Marine Bikes at a higher Caf?

c) ...you're trying to make a point that changing SM Bikes also changes Chaos Marine Bikes? Which since you pointed them out they do seem a bit queer to me.

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

My answer is a)

Even if SM bikes caf reaches +3, do not touch Chaos bikes But it's possible that a Chaos player comes here and ask for a +3 caf for chaos bikes.

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Fair players live longer
Epic40k.fr Techpriest

I'm with Warhead here.

Marine bikes should be 3+. When playing Orks or Eldar, normally Marine cavalry does not stand a chance. Even with a 3+ CAF, the odds are still against them concerning numbers (KoS with Nob Bikes, Wind Rider Host, Rough Riders) and pinning (War Buggies, and Eldar bikes are skimmers, remember).

3+ would be a big help.

Concerning Attack Bikes, I always saw them as some kind of Marine Viper, supporting the bikers with shootyshooty.

Actually....that looks like a cock up to me.  Chaos Marine bikes....can't see why they'd have a cwap morale and if that was fixed can't see why they wouldn't be the same price as their loyalist equivalent.  I also note the CSM bike company is the same cost as the Marine one supporting the argument.  

Dissenting opinions?

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Fire bad, tree pretty - Buffy

About CSM bikes morale, I thought it was normal as CSM rhino detachment were also at 4+ (I just checked on last Chaos Army on WMN website (Chaos20091228.pdf).

I'm OK to boost CSM bikes caf to +3, increase cost to 150 points and change morale value to 2. Maybe fix rhino morale to 2 too.

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Fair players live longer
Epic40k.fr Techpriest

cannot see a reason not to up the csm bikes either,

is "2" the usual csm morale value? if so, it should be in line with the other csm stuff, imo

Yes Sanjuro, 2 is the standard morale value for csm "standard" stuff

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Fair players live longer
Epic40k.fr Techpriest

great, then let's do it.

Now the only thing missing for chaos are trolls on bikes  

Not really. See below.



The "inconsequential detail" (supported by my memory) sayeth said rule has been there from the very beginning. This is the first time I've heard someone has a problem with it so I definitely wouldn't call that rule a "fault". In fact it was added just to get rid of the "oh, that bike unit just charged 60cm in plain view of those devastators but they can't do anything since they ended their move behind some LOS blocker" -fault all too prevalent in SM2. Personally I did just the opposite of what you did: I included snap fire in SM2.

Snap fire is hardly a game winner (or even an imbalance) as there is a to-hit penalty and the unit will do nothing more that turn even if it is a command unit and artillery can't snap fire at all.

Now about the AA; like already pointed out firing at aircraft by non-AA units carries even bigger penalty. However, if there isn't some "petty semantic" or "inconsequential detail" in the rules restricting snap AA-fire to infantry only I would add that ASAP as I can't see a tank firing its main (or even secondary) armament at an aircraft. Even if Kurt Hellman did so...



Har har. That would've been funny if it had been funny.

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I don't know and I let who care. -J.S.

only AA and Inf. on FF
even if I managed to shoot helicopters down on Battlefield, with the Tank´s main weapon

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I am not available for that cognition on my part

CSM Bikes at 2+ Morale and +3 Caf as their SM buddies, agreed.

Two fixes for the price of one! This is a great result for any ranting thread I've ever started. It may not be my intended target but I always hit something so I guess I'm satisfied in a self deluded kind of way.


@ Mojarn Piett:



I believe the factoid of when the rule was originally introduced to Epic IS a "Petty semantic," don't you?..    What's next grammar and spelling? As far as I could see you were simply trying to dismiss me and what I was saying with something I viewed as irrelevant. So you had to die. It's Internet Law.

Ok, so Snap Fire brings Tactical firing at moving units to the table but as I stated before on the original discussion, at what cost to the rest of the game? And in particular close combat armies in question. I'm glad it works for you but I'm guessing your not a predominantly Chaos, Tyranid or Ork player. I tend to play them all and like them all, even if I dis the ranged armies for being effete and unmanly.

I've identified what I believe to be an imbalance in the game (Snap Fire for all). So I wanted to see what everyone thought. Does Snap Fire for all outweigh the other changes that have had to be implemented in order to include this? Or do the negative changes I have highlighted outweigh the benefit of Snap Fire for all? Perhaps my way of expressing myself isn't easy to understand but you can't have it all ways, ruggedly handsome and gods gift will just have to do for now. Besides, I blame everyone else's inability to comprehend my meaning. It's the only logical explanation.

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

Actually, I wasn't proposing to change the CAF, just fix the Morale and cost anomolies.

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Fire bad, tree pretty - Buffy