Yup.  When we started on Raiders the basic concern was (and still is) that GW may exercise their right to shut it down.  It's all deritive IP which translates into nominal rights.  The only reason why Raiders exists is because GW allows it to exist. Their game, their money, their choices. I have no problem with that.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Well, I don't think anyone is arguing that GW isn't within their rights to protect their IP. The real problem is what they are doing in addition to that.

I would suggest that GW may be targetting activities which are considered fair use (at least in some countries). They can do so because they have more money and more lawyers than the people they are targetting (since it doesn't really matter that you have rights if you cannot afford to protect them). This does in fact create the chilling effect that Eric M mentioned, since now people are scared of being sued, and will therefore be self-restricting with regards to activities that they should actually be allowed to persue according to the law of the land.

So the problem is not that GW is protecting its IP, the problem is that GW is also threating legal action over activities that it has no actual grounds to do so.

I realize that this kind of thing happens alot in businessland, but I think GW might be doing itself more harm that good with this. The fact is eventually things like this will come back and bite them in the ass.

I mean, with regards to the BB LRB6.0 situation, I thought that the guy had complied with all of GWs requests, but then GW pulled the rulebook anyway. If that is the case then I think that people can be reasonably expected to call foul (and as this is the internet, they will be more than willing to let everyone else know of their opinion).

[At least that is how I perceive what is going on.]

This topic has turned a corner.  Might I suggest a Tac-Comm C&D on this thread before any more idiotic statements get made.

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"I think that's how that works, wait get the rule book..."

I think this topic should be kept open. It's important for the community to discuss these issues.

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Uti possidetis, ita possideatis.
May your beer be laid under an enchantment of surpassing excellence for seven years!
An online epic force creator: Armyforge

I will leave this thread open for the time being, but will monitor it and request that the relevant moderators do likewise.



I think that this gets to the heart of the issue, whether this lack of actual grounds is true or just perceived.

Essentially, and like most things, this must be taken at a case by case basis. Simply stating that 'GW is evil' or 'GW is acting on our behalf' becomes a great generalisation and loses the detail of each action.

In the end, it is down to the self-policing community, and the 'beneficial dictatorship' of webmasters to make decisions as and when they come up. I can only state that each of us has a line. Anyone who has worked with GW for any amount of time will have a fairly realistic basis on which to make decisions. We are all fairly aware of the benefits and pitfalls of the company, and the boons and traps of working within their worlds. GW have at no time approached me regarding any material - partially due to the relationship that we have with them (being dedicated to a small game and flying under the radar, and having an excellent working partnership with people in GW itself) and partially due to the fact that we are - in general - careful about respecting GW IP.

As far as I am aware, this site has had only two reaction to the C&D flood. The first is a greater awareness of recasting and sculpting of EA proxy miniatures. This is something that is really quite clear in legal terms. Site policy has not changed in this, and while personal sculpting and casting is pretty much encouraged, the sale of these is stamped out where possible.

The second is the BB6 link. This was requested by the author not to be disseminated, and I respect his decision on it. I dont judge whether he is right or wrong, but that is his wish.

I do think that the recent round of C&D letters has had a 'clamming effect' on some web sites. I think that this was the point by GW. I also think that 'big gun diplomacy' is being exercised by GW legal in some areas. That wont come as a shock to most people.

I sincerely hope that I will not be faced with the decision of how to react if this is pointed at us, but currently we have enjoyed a good autonomy and zero interference from GW.

At this point, I am not entirely sure what other courses are available? We could keep links up, and potentially watch GW go after the BB key contributor, but I am not sure how that would help our cause or make any point.

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https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond.
https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.

Then this must be said.  I can see you are passionate about this, and I know that forums have internet anonymity, but comparing GW's recent heavy handed activities protecting IP to a poem about the rise of the Nazi party and subsequent extermination of their chosen targets is the idiotic statement I refer to.  This is in poor taste, and utterly offensive.  

I'm all for sticking it to a corporation that offends my personal moral code, but a company that makes toy soldiers is pretty far down the list.  I've found that refusing to give money to said company usually solves all my problems.  Ultimately, they are doing what they are doing, if you don't like it leave.  Play something else.

I'm sure this will do nothing but feed the flames, but had to be said.

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"I think that's how that works, wait get the rule book..."

I was speaking with one of the law lecturers at my uni during the week, and it so happens that he studied copyright law and is aware of the GW situation. He's planning on using it as a case study for his 3rd years this year.
But the issue isn't with GW exactly, its the issue with Fantasy Flight Games. Under American copyright legislation, there is a strange clause which is complicated but can be boiled down to a basic line. If you use or publish something that someone else holds the copyright to, and you get away with it. You receive an equal share as a copyright holder.
GW hasn't worried about this before mainly as they are a UK company, but since FFG is American and they now hold the rights to all GW boardgames and roleplay material, it has become an issue. FFG have turned to GW and pointed out several sites where their copyright is in danger of being violated and GW have been forced to take action. This led to the first big conflict which we as gamers have witnessed in recent years, which is the Bloodball Talk forums receiving a C&D order.

I don't believe it will affect us here as Epic, and BFG for that matter, are not boardgames and not owned by FFG. The big ones that spring to mind are Talisman, Bloodball and Dark Heresy.

I don't like a lot of what GW have done to the hobby I love, but they are not completely to blame for this last round of C&D orders. What they did to Dreamforge Studios however  

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"A learning experience is one of those things that says; 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."
- Douglas Adams

Some FAQs to IP issues from TGN:
http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2010/01/08/32643

Interesting is question 4 regarding using photos of painted models.

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We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

So, this means Otterman could C&D many of us ?

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AFK with real life, still checking PMs

Thank you. This make GW's action relevant, or actually FFG's, and also, republican, appropriate.
It's however not acceptable from a democratic standpoint.
But then again USA isn't a democracy, it's a republic...

DCD ~ I understand from where you come, but I still believe it's as big a wrong to pluck the legs of a fly as a of a puppy. And if you started with flies there's a big chance you continued with puppies, and from there the  sky's the limit.

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

Indeed this help us heaps. Even if most of our actions take place from a UK IP standpoint. And then even more from your own country's IP regulations.
Damn good show of that attorney to write so well and readable. Kudos Attorney A!

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

Couldn't help thinking of this thread when watching QI last night - the rule that whenever, in an online argument, somebody makes analogies/comparisons with the Nazies they have automatically lost the argument  

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www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

Ah! You're also one of them plucking legs of flies then?
Or more correctly, one of them that give his view (arguments) and then expects it to stand. Regardless of other's arguments.

The problem isn't the usual moderate human. The problem is the not so sure of himself one. He will not see the difference in not reading a book and burning books in the streets.
And the one loosing the "argument" is the one trying to palm someone else off as "bringing nazi references up". 'Cause that's an argument killer, and it shows how little you actually can speak for yourself.

Anyhow, back to the subject on hand.

Yes, this has scared the crap out of community owners. Bill Armintrout at TMP is one of them. He locked my account (banned for life) with no warning. I was upset and told people where they could get LRB6 elsewhere. He brought up something about a piracy free zone, which is neither explicit or implicit on TMP and it's questionable if it's even relevant. More to the point is that he refuse to talk to anyone about it.

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

Just to be clear Erik - I tend to agree with you that GW has been heavy-handed and unnecessary in its cease and desist orders - though largely within its rights. What I don't agree with is the melodramatic way you have talked about the issues and the comparisons with Nazi repression which is, at best, idiotic and at worst offensive.

Looking at your previous post can you tell me how your attacks on me differ from your own stance - refusal to change views over any subject ne it GW policy or rules development.

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www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

Steve, I think we both went out on a limb here. Perhaps time to bind them together and climb down? *reaching over with a rope-end*

What really bugs me is that this [Tom Ander ~ Bloodbowl ~ Jervis Johnson ~ Games Workshop ~ Fantasy Flight Games] thing could've been handled far better if GW had laid out the cards from the start. We're not stOOpid, we know of rules and regulations.
Now they initiated heaps of angst und greif instead of the sturm und drang that sells them models and games.

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641