It is not that TWs were nerfed by the lv change. Nor is it that Raveners now seem too buff.  Rrather the problem is that gaunts and gaunt spawning were nerfed by the LV change, to no added benefit (except increasing the relative attractiveness of raveners, and allowing TWs to hide behind AVs--- neither of which was the intended effect)

Your observations support the above assertion. TWs were changed to LVs to allow them to become targets.  This change failed to achieve its intended effect.  What you are saying is that this change did not actually impact the TWs; rather changing the relative utility of common broods.

In short, the result of the change was not dead TWs but irrelevant gaunts -- because raveners are good meat shields as welll as good ff and cc.

I disagree that raveners necessarily need toning down -- they would be toned down almost as well by  making TWs infantry once again. This latter change would be less likely to generate further unintended consequences.

fredmans

Can you please post your army list in their respective swarms? I would be interested to see how you were using each unit.

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I don't see Raveners as the 'core' or 'basic infantry' of the Tyranid army, not only from a background point of view (I see Gaunts being the 'core') but also because unlike Gaunts, Lictors, Genestealers, Warriors, etc there is no official Epic model for Raveners.

Building a large dependence on a non-existant model doesn't seem the best way to encourage a list or gain it credibility/officialdom.

Don't get me wrong, Raveners have become an integral part of the Tyranid army since the Epic plastics were made- but I prefer them as a Rare Brood, or attached to a Trygon formation.

agreed on this.  Hence my concerns above.

I thought orbital bombardment is something the nids simply don't do?

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Sure, but remember, this was a showcase game to introduce Epic to a new bunch of players. Both me and my opponent tried to use as much variation as possible to give the on-lookers a feel for different units and formations (hence the 3.5K and lack of battle report). The on-going clarification of rules also meant that the game could not be finished in time, but we caught two (possibly three) new players in the net.

3.5K Nids

Independent Swarms:

Harridan
Hierophant
6 Genestealers w. Broodlord
4 Lictors

Synapse Swarms:

Dominatrix
2 Exocrines
Malefactor
2 Hormagaunts
2 Termagaunts

Infestation Group
2 Dactylis
2 Gargoyles

Winged Hive Tyrant
Trygon
Haruspex
Malefactor
2 Gargoyles

2 TW + Hive Tyrant
2 Haruspex
Malefactor
2 Gargoyles
4 Raveners
5 Hormagaunts
5 Termagaunts

3 Tyranid Warriors
2 Gargoyles
5 Hormagaunts
4 Raveners
5 Termagaunts

A little bit on army selection: I wanted to include as much variation as possible (and show off my Dominatrix). Hence, not two of any uncommon brood. I also wanted to try the Trygon and Exocrines out.

My biggest problem with Exocrines is that they lack any obvious synapse/common broods to tag along. If you stick them to the Dominatrix, you limit its usability as offensive objective contester or waste the uncommon brood selection. If you go with the Infestation Group, both other artillery options are better, since they can fire Indirectly from an otherwise immobile synapse. I guess it is possible to field them with a Tyrant as a mobile BM-layer, but the problem then is that every Exocrine fielded is something else not fielded. I have a hard time justifying Biovores, so Exocrines look very unattractive at the moment. hence, my initial question: How do people use them?

I think Hena is right, Exocrines should be moved from the bio-artillery option. I have read a lot of Tyranid battle reports, and not once have I seen Biovores or Exocrines. This should tell us something. I will go with the Biovore/Warrior combo next time, but what about Exocrines? Are they worth it in fours? I am thinking Tyrant/4 Exocrines, possibly a Zoanthrope? Should Exocrines perhaps come in threes?

/Fredmans

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Exocrines certainly fall more along the lines of direct fire offense (Like Predators or Fire Prisms) than artillery. They're very hard to use as I feel they need to be run as a dedicated unit of Tyrant (Maybe winged) with at least 3 Exocrines as 2 just isn't enough. 3 for 175pts seems a reasonable price as Indirect Fire is worth a lot on the more static artillery formations

This is exactly what I am leaning towards. Put Exocrines with Malefactor and Haruspex, and you get 3 for 175.

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Played a game against IG yesterday using the CC4+ Raveners, Assault Spawn Exocrine and 100 pt Tyranid Warriors.  

The Warriors ended up failing most of their initiative rolls, so not much input there.  The Exocrine seemed a much better deal at ~60 pts each rather than 75.  I think they're worth taking as close support as Assault Spawn.  The Raveners also felt much more balanced.  My subterranean swarm was able to wipe some manticores and their rough rider bodyguards, but it was much closer.  

It'll take more games to really get a feel for their effects, but I think these changes go in the right direction.

Played a game last night My IG Steel legion (with 23 lemanruss) V Nyds 9.2.1

I won on count back.  But that was not the result which should have been my op didn't take the objective, instead tried to eat me.  should have been 3-0 his way.

But I find the Nyds have a couple bonus that make them so hard combat.

1. no blast markers for Brood creatures in a Synaps formtation.
2. being able to get a +2 to rally

just found they that I couldn't slow down the Nyds with blast markers cause they could take hits on Brood.  I feel they should get one or the other not both.  I also think they need +2 to Rally, or engage as it makes them who they are..

I did manage to take down 3 Bio's  that was 20DC worth of Titans, I did have to use some 60 to 70% of my formations each turn to do so, so I didn't have enough left to take down any other formations.  The other units did engage at range some unit's I just couldn't do enough damage to cause get to the synaps creatures.

My other concern is how they will work in a tournament. With the ability to assigning different creatures to different formation at the start of each game. (possibly more of a TO option not a list option)

I really only find these things bug me.

cheers

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Just to be sure, you know that the Bug swarms *do* take the Blast marker for getting shot at, which means anything other than an Engage is at 3+, so they can be slowed down that way.

Not sure what you mean by "take hits on Brood" though... if you score four hits and the fourth creature in order is a Synapse creature, the hit has to be assigned to it, there's no way of "bodyguarding" with Brood creatures that are further away; could you explain more what you mean here?


What is you concern here?  Most Bug players, in my experience, have "pre-made" their swarms well before a tournament/game so they can have swarms for specific tasks... making up your swarms "on the spot" tends to be more of a detriment as you'll have no battle plans ahead of time... they might swap a few things around for air defense or garrisons, but most Bug players plan ahead.

Thanks for you input!

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Ok what was happening is....

I had 8 Lemanruss firing, (cause 2 were suppressed with blastmarkers) hitting with all the Battle cannons (AT hits) and Lascanons (AT hits.) and only 8 HBolter hits.

We was in cover, and that is amazingly high hits I did as well.

So he spreads out the hits from the AP (HBolters) on the gaunts (there were that many of them.) then spread the AT hits out amount the LV and AV in the swarm.  Made all the saves for AV/LV's (cover saves) all the Gaunts bit it..  So I should have had 9 blast markers (would have broken the formation)  but instead only get 1 blast marker.

As for the 2nd point, arh it strikes me as strange that you would need to have a plan for Nyds..
Run forward and assault. it is not like you have a lot of shooting..

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