I got a rather pleasant game in with Ginger tonight, Dark Eldar vs Black Templars. One particularly odd situation came up that we weren't sure how to deal with.

A formation of wyches engaged a devastator formation inside land raiders, and locked them in the vehicles by getting 2 wyches in base contact with each. Then, the Wyches used their first strike attacks to destroy both land raiders, and 3 of the devestators passed their saves. The question is what happens now? Do the devestators get to attack? Normally they wouldn't because they were locked in, but since the transports were destroyed by first strike attacks, when it comes time for the devestators to attack they are no longer locked in a vehicle.

We decided to allow them to attack with CC but not FF, since their vehicles had been in CC, but wonder what your opinions might be?

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

I've had this come up before with Howling Banshees, we weren't sure but the way we did it was the devestators get there attacks but have to fight using their CC value.

This may be wrong but thats the way we worked it at the time.

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I'd say they'd get to fight with CC as well.

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Dave

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get their attacks and CC, at least we handeled it that way

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I'd go with CC attacks for the dismounted troops as well.

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Neal

Huh, I always thought troops locked inside their transports just died since they can;t get out.

Though is the rule is that they get to CC then First Striek is actually a liability here and I don;t think that's the intent is it?

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They don't immediately "die", they suffer an automatic hit and can make an armour save to survive.

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It might be less of an advantage in this kind of situation, but I don't think it is a liability.

With the above-average saves for the loaded Devastators, the bonus kill for the one that failed to save along with the loss of the LR would balance out with the SM's extra attacks by the dismounted infantry on average.  In most situations, the bonus kills on transported troops would more than make up for the benefits of having the infantry get to attack in CC.

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Neal

Well as the attacker you can always chose to not lock those troops in by only placing one unit in base to base. Of course that means the devs can counter charge out and you end up in the same position.

Ok, the full situation was a Landing craft had arrived on the edge of the table by planetfall containing Devastators and Tacticals, both in Land Raiders. Both formations elected to stay in their vehicles to provide a better range for their initial movement, and the Tacticals had moved away. The Wytches arrived in a Vampire, getting a hit from the Landing Craft AA and then had to decide whether to count the Landing Craft as intermingled or not.

The Wytches CC3+ / FF6+ first strike caused 7x hits on the Land Raiders killing both of them but 3x Devastators saved setting up the situation. Both sides made better than average dice up to this point (should be 3.3 First Stike hits potentially not killing any LR or Devs). I was counting on the LR saving, the Landing Craft killing 2-3 and with the Eldar BMs this should have left the Devs 3+ minimum - but statistics do not count where I am concerned

To the question about First strike being a liability, Neal is right that it is not a liability because the extra kills should more than balance the additional attacks of the surviving troops. Consider the potential events if this had been set up against Tacticals in Rhinos:-

With 6x Wytches on CC3+ and 2x FF6+, against a measly 3x CC6+ it is no contest on the face of things. The Wytches should score ~4.3 hits, killing all three Rhinos and also three further marines. In reply, the Marines get only 1.5 hits, and even if that kills two Wytches, the Wytches go into the assault resolution +4 up(kills and outnumbering), so it is highly unlikely they will lose. If the Marines save two Rhinos, they should only get ~1 hit in reply, and the Wytches go into the resolution +1 up. The marines only enter the resolution ahead of their opponents if they manage to save all three Rhinos (which is highly unlikely - unless you are using the fabled "left-handed Dice of Dave" when it almost a racing certainty)

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Ginger: Actually there were more than 6 attacks from the wyches, it was 2 bases of warp beasts and 4 wyches, one of whych (heh heh heh) had a character, so 9 attacks.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Ah, thought I had got things wrong - put it down to senility. However, you did only take on the Devastators didn't you, cos I know we discussed the assault for some time. Anyhow, from memory it could have gone either way, and I think you ended up +1 on the resolution, with the Devs scuttling back into the Landing Craft

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