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Defiler Formations
Chroma
 Post subject: Defiler Formations
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 1:41 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 22 May 2009, 13:33 )

It's pretty stupid in Epic too, until you remember that the ground scale is bigger than it appears.

Just cuz I like tooting my own horn (HEY NOW!), "EPIC: Total War" will have rules/options for off-board artillery.   :agree:

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daemonkin
 Post subject: Defiler Formations
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 1:48 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 22 May 2009, 13:20 )

I don't see why not... by all accounts it's a pretty lame arty piece anyway, requiring a formation to be attached to.

Which is why I would like to playtest defiler formations with both old indirect fire weaponry and if possible their new close combat statline.

D.

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Steve54
 Post subject: Defiler Formations
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:44 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 22 May 2009, 13:20 )

Quote: (Rug @ 22 May 2009, 09:59 )

I think the Defiler still represents it's 40k equivalent. At 15cms (engage range) it is great in cc and ff, at longer range (not represented in 40k)it lobs shells with it's big gun, what else is it going to do?

It specifically lost its indirect fire capability in the new codex (which is more than a year old now).

In return it gained a couple of CC attacks.

Ie: It got more deadly in CC, crapper at shooting.


Should BL have zero arty just because in 40k (a close quarters game) they have not arty?

I don't see why not... by all accounts it's a pretty lame arty piece anyway, requiring a formation to be attached to.

If we changed Epic every time 40k changed things would get silly. Besides there are plenty of examples of units being slightly different in 40k as they are in Epic. CSM don't need another assault AV and LatD already has access to Khorne Deamon engines, the Defiler has a unique niche, I'd rather see it kept the same personally.

I'm sure Jervis would agree...

...he's happy to keep the Baneblade & Vindicator, etc, as it is too!  :))




I just prefer that the lists are kept up to date when the opportunity presents itself, otherwise we end up playing NetEpic, where a decent chunk of the units act nothing like their counterparts in Warhammer 40,000.

I'm not in favour of slavishly following every single change, but in this case, the Epic Defiler is a 'shooty' unit, whilst the Warhammer 40,000 one is a 'combatty' unit. The role is completely different, and thus unrepresentative.

Allowing a new Defiler formation will go some way towards mitigating their loss of Indirect Fire.


I hope that outlines my position adequately.
I thought Jervis was more against changing units that were in published rulebooks than any issue valid to this discussion (though many would argue that this policy is good as it did manage to block the Eldar 1.8 list changes).

The choice for the defiler is either keep with indirect where it is a useful unit choice but doesn't represent 40k or change it to a CC unit in its own formation where it is completely pointless and will never be taken but does reflect 40k.

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Steve54
 Post subject: Defiler Formations
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:46 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 22 May 2009, 13:23 )

Quote: (Steve54 @ 22 May 2009, 11:11 )

Face it rug actual experience with the list and gameplay have been continually shouted down by the vocal few in BL discussion and so have counted for little. I can't see that this will change

And I don't own a Chaos Marines army?  :D


Besides, this debate isn't about how the unit plays in the game* (it obviously fills a niche)... it's about whether the unit is representative of Warhammer 40,000 / the background**.

Currently, it's been left behind.


* Which you need a modicum of list experience to debate with.
** Which you don't.

Great does that mean you won't dictate the BL list from now on then?*  :D

*Which you need a modicum of list experience to do

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Defiler Formations
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:55 pm 
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I thought Jervis was more against changing units that were in published rulebooks than any issue valid to this discussion (though many would argue that this policy is good as it did manage to block the Eldar 1.8 list changes).


Jervis was against changing stats or points costs wherever possible so as to help Tournament gamers keep a static gaming environment.

Apparently the (UK) Tournament gamers were none-too-impressed by that approach in the end anyway...

The choice for the defiler is either keep with indirect where it is a useful unit choice but doesn't represent 40k or change it to a CC unit in its own formation where it is completely pointless and will never be taken but does reflect 40k.

If it changed to properly represent the background / Warhammer 40,000 rules, t'd still have a decent ranged fire capability (Battlecannon, plus secondary weapons like th twin autocannon), and once it has closed with the enemy it would have a decent initiative rating & high strategy rating backing it up, meaning it should get the charge off on most enemies.

Hardly 'completely pointless', it'd just be an assaulty Daemon engine, not quite as good at CC as the Khorne Daemon engines, but with more direct-fire power.


'completely pointless' is the Space Marine Autocannon Predator.


Great does that mean you won't dictate the BL list from now on then?*  :D

*Which you need a modicum of list experience to do
That's Ad Hominem, and incorrectly so too, being as I have used the BL list, and have played against it a fair bit too in my own gaming group before we decided we prefered the Red Corsairs list.




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Steve54
 Post subject: Defiler Formations
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:02 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 22 May 2009, 14:55 )

I thought Jervis was more against changing units that were in published rulebooks than any issue valid to this discussion (though many would argue that this policy is good as it did manage to block the Eldar 1.8 list changes).


Jervis was against changing stats or points costs wherever possible so as to help Tournament gamers keep a static gaming environment.

Apparently the (UK) Tournament gamers were none-too-impressed by that approach in the end anyway...

Exactly - which is why the units didn't change not because he thought they were fine - so is completely irrelevant to this discussion - as I said.

I think the majority of the UK tournament scene were happy with the Jervis changes as it blocked a lot of things that we had argued vociferously against - MW barrage changes, Eldar changes etc

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Defiler Formations
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:05 pm 
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MW barrage changes,


That was pretty poorly regarded on Tactical Command too.

Eldar changes etc

My impression is that the EpicUK comittee is pretty unimpressed with the 'Pulse becomes 2x shots' change?

At least Matt O. seems to dislike it.


Going way OT now sorry. :)




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Steve54
 Post subject: Defiler Formations
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:06 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 22 May 2009, 14:55 )

If it changed to properly represent the background / Warhammer 40,000 rules, t'd still have a decent ranged fire capability (Battlecannon, plus secondary weapons like th twin autocannon), and once it has closed with the enemy it would have a decent initiative rating & high strategy rating backing it up, meaning it should get the charge off on most enemies.

Hardly 'completely pointless', it'd just be an assaulty Daemon engine, not quite as good at CC as the Khorne Daemon engines, but with more direct-fire power.


'completely pointless' is the Space Marine Autocannon Predator.


[

So a slow CC unit in a list with a number of fast CC units which, in addition, will be hideously vulnerable to AT fire - I'm sure that will be widely used

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Defiler Formations
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:11 pm 
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A battlecannon-toting vehicle that can skulk from cover-to-cover due to its Walker status until it's time to leap out 40cm and chop some stuff up, with a comparatively cheap formation cost...

...seems like a fine concept to me, and formations of them work well enough in the L&TD list, where there are other units with similar roles too (Basilisks / Khorne Daemon Engines).

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Defiler Formations
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:27 pm 
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So after all the rhetoric ... is it a Tank, a Walker like Sentinels ... OR ? :rock:  :sulk:

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dptdexys
 Post subject: Defiler Formations
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:34 pm 
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Why can't there be more than 1 version of the Defiler.

The BL and LandD version plus the Assault Defiler version and maybe others to match the lists their in,I'm thinking along the lines of variant Land Speeders/Predators/Leman Russ etc.

The variant Chaos lists could have Defilers to suit,Shooty/Assault/AA etc.
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Irondeath
 Post subject: Defiler Formations
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 3:51 pm 
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I trialled Defilers in Armoured Companies a couple of times, combining them with Vindicators, problem was that a (relatively) slow yet dangerous up close AV formation with 4+ saves won´t make contact, any opponent worth his salt will BM them and break them.

That is a tactical problem even a pure-Defiler formation will face, high-cost AVs will always go down under BM, IG at least have a Commissar and large formation size to compensate, others Skimmer, but BL has to employ armour very carefully or it will be neutralized.

Maybe an 11-strong formation of 8xPredators/Vindicators and 3xDefilers could work ... or attract even more unwanted attention!
:;):

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