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Privateer Press changes

 Post subject: Privateer Press changes
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:44 pm 
Swarm Tyrant
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So, PP have made two significant changes/announcements recently.

1. Introduction of plastic minis
2. Second edition of Warmachine

Following on from the D6G podcast, I wondered if anyone had any opinions on these events?

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 Post subject: Privateer Press changes
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:59 pm 
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Well the pictures of the new models in plastic still look awesome! I've no real axe to grind there.

As to 2nd edition again I'm not that bothered. As long as the game play maintains the same feel, and I can use all my models as is, I've got no problems.

Now if they talk about version 3 in 2 or 3 years then we may have a problem!


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 Post subject: Privateer Press changes
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:25 pm 
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A new Warmachine. Sounds great, that way new players might get interested.

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 Post subject: Privateer Press changes
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:26 pm 
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I havent played WarmaHordes in a few years now. It became too much of a headache trying to keep track of all the effects going on, all the odd special rules each card had, and having to know the other persons forces as well as mine. That, and the power creep new units would have was just getting out of control.

A ver 2 might make me keep my Khador, Mercs, and Circle.


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 Post subject: Privateer Press changes
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:43 pm 
Swarm Tyrant
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The thing that interests me is the response to the various news items from PP. I dont fault PPs logic in these moves as sensible business decisions. However, I cant see any argument against the opinion that it brings their business model several steps closer to GWs model.

A few years ago, PP seemed wrapped up in a certain outlook and approach - metal models only, page five philosophy, quality tabletop wargame products, great customer service, etc. In addition, there was a certain arrogance - particularly against GW as company and their continuous updated rules and books and the perceived emphasis on buying more and old material being outdated.

We now have a PP which has put out a collectable game, has switched over to plastic, has diluted page five considerably and announced a new version of their game only around a year after the last update, stating that all points values will be changed, and therefore all players will need to update.

I have to admit that there are few things on Earth that irritate me more than arrogance, and while I dont accuse PP staff of this in any way, the company as an entity and some of the more rabid fanbase has come across this way.

I am just interested that PP is close to becoming something that it has always attempted to distance itself from and look down on (GW).

I also hope that this place, not being made up of players of the core GW games much, or being equally devoted PP fanboys, could give some balanced and thoughtful opinions.

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 Post subject: Privateer Press changes
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:07 pm 
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I don't play any PP games at all.  I did attempt at one time to get into Warmachine but honestly nobody in my area was game.  I do love their models though and I would be somewhat disappointed to lift up a heavy warjack from the table and discover it was light plastic.

I really like the looks of the Mariners/Sea Dogs or whatever they are!

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 Post subject: Privateer Press changes
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:38 am 
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Quote: (CyberShadow @ 26 Mar. 2009, 20:43 )

We now have a PP which has... diluted page five considerably

Sorry... are you offering this as an example of a bad thing?

Chaplain Leviticus: please don't fall into the Frothers mindset towards plastic.  I don't subscribe to the belief that plastic is the doom of mini wargaming because it's 'not heavy'.

Issues of pricing, production and detail, maybe; but not weight.


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 Post subject: Privateer Press changes
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:59 am 
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Don't get me wrong plastics are wonderful.  I just love for my miniatures to have weight to them, i'm very old school.  Besides, you cannot melt plastic down to make musket balls.

I am interested to see what WM2 looks like though.

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 Post subject: Privateer Press changes
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:45 am 
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Quote: (Chaplain Leviticus @ 26 Mar. 2009, 16:07 )

I don't play any PP games at all.  I did attempt at one time to get into Warmachine but honestly nobody in my area was game.  I do love their models though and I would be somewhat disappointed to lift up a heavy warjack from the table and discover it was light plastic.

I really like the looks of the Mariners/Sea Dogs or whatever they are!

PP games are VERY popular in my neck of the woods. We have a very large community of gamers for almost all systems. I used to play quite a lot, but it became too much of a chore after awhile. Their models are great, though the initial "this is cheaper than warhammer" wore off a little too fast. it is now to the point where you need to get the latest and greatest to stay competitive.


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 Post subject: Privateer Press changes
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:15 pm 
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Quote: (Vermis @ 27 Mar. 2009, 00:38 )

Quote: (CyberShadow @ 26 Mar. 2009, 20:43 )

We now have a PP which has... diluted page five considerably

Sorry... are you offering this as an example of a bad thing?

Not at all. My opinion on all of this is that they are a sensible set of changes which I cant fault. If PP had never set out with such statements that would clearly come back and bite them, then there would be no discussion on this from me, really.

My problem - if i have one - is that PP started out with a certain ethos of 'this is how we are doing things, and this is the best way and anyone who doesnt do this is wrong' (paraphrasing and probably overstating) and are now making almost 180 degree changes. It is somewhat ironic.

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 Post subject: Privateer Press changes
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:22 pm 
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Quote: (silentbob27 @ 27 Mar. 2009, 02:45 )

it is now to the point where you need to get the latest and greatest to stay competitive.

More than anything, this is what I hope a new edition will fix. I came to the party late - within the past year - and even in Hordes the learning curb is very intimidating. Add to that the sheer uselessness of many of the older models - or, as some would argue, almost all jacks - and what is required is a general re-balancing of rules and point costs to streamlines things, make the rules more accessible, and encourage a larger variety of lists. Sure, you can use old models, or less popular ones, but you will be at a disadvantage if you do so (even more so if you are learning). Warmachine and Hordes always seem to lack the "fluffy" lists that can still be somewhat competitive, although that may be as much the result of player mentality as it is of the rules.

As for the change in direction, well..."a man loves the meat in his youth that he cannot stomach in his old age".  :tongue: I take it as a sign of maturity and evolution, the recognition of a company that has grown beyond policies and stances that it could hold when it was small and new. At least I hope that is what it is. I'm certainly not a devoted Privateer Press fan, but I honestly believe more companies is always a good sign. Honest reappraisal, if that is what this represents, is even better.


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 Post subject: Privateer Press changes
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:00 pm 
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I hadn't heard of Page Five before this thread.  I went and looked it up.  That's certainly interesting.

This is the game of hot man-on-man actio... er... um.. metal-on-metal combat.

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 Post subject: Privateer Press changes
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:10 pm 
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Sorry CS.  I should've stuck a semi-serious smiley in there.  :laugh:


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 Post subject: Privateer Press changes
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:20 pm 
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Well, I guess I'm one of those sad people who prefer metal models every time.

Despite what some folks keep telling me, I find the detail of metal models better (not least because of the mould verticals/undercuts that are simply not possible to do with plastic) and also find metal easier to file/clean. I've tried lots of techniques for cleaning plastic mouldlines, and whether I scrape or file or both, they always end up being more work for me than cleaning metal. I pin and putty *everything* too, so plastic or metal makes no difference to me in that regard.

I also like that I can strip metal models repeatedly with just about anything, safe in the knowledge that whetever they were painted with I can get it off with no harm to the metal.

The move to plastic models doesn't therefore thrill me at all, and whilst they will no doubt initially be cheaper, I wonder how long that will last (see: GW).

Page 5... Well it was always supposed to be tongue-in-cheek, and although I still wince when I read it, I always assumed that it was because I'm English. :sigh:

Rules-wise, the game is very well designed. The core mechanics are clever and allow for a lot of tactics even without any unit special rules.

Where the WM/H rules have been getting silly is in giving the same ability different names, or giving the same-named ability different wording (and therefore different rules) to several units. There has also been a big increase (relatively) recently in the number of models that can perform out-of-turn activations, and the headache that this causes when two units with this ability enage each other is nightmareish. Add to that a number of units/abilities that allow dead models to be brought back or reused or to keep fighting after they have been killed, and it gets very complicated even without any other rule snags.

A lot of this led PP to write a 'timing' list, where different effects that trigger from the death of a model or the initiation of an attack are put in priority order. This is great in a way, but it has never been written into any rulebook or FAQ that I know of.  It is also hard for new players getting onto the game to realise that there are 'stages' to a model's death which can (de)activate abilites or effects before the model is taken off the table.

The new edition of the rules comes after many player calls to bring all the rules togther and tidy up all the issues that simply have no resolution. Frankly, I agree, but I'm worried that all-too-often there is also a temptaion to 'fix' other things. PP missed the chance really with Remix to do more than fix one or two of the most blatently unbalanced units and tidy up rules that weren't very well explained, and I'm worried that the axe may swing too far the other way now.

Next, from their forums and mags especially, I do get the impression that tournament play is a big part of the game. Why this emphasis should be so I never really fully understood, but a lot of factors which can 'balance' forces (like scenarios or alternate victory conditions) are not in the main books and are released as tournament packs instead.
As a result, I think that a lot of focus is given to winning rather than playing games, and so spam-lists or 'net-lists see a lot of use despite the ecouragement from PP to play more balanced lists and not be embarrassed to field the models you want to. And this is a shame, because adespite some units/models being somewhat underwhelming (for example by overlapping another unit that has the same function but is more efficient/costs fewer points or by having a severe negative drawback), virtually everything in the game is quite usable. The main tournaments usually have timed turns as well, and that means that models with fiddly rules or which don't have a huge/obvious effect on their first charge/use etc tend to be sidelined due to lack of time to get all your models activated and finished.

This focus on tournament play is not only quite dominant, but also skews perceptions about what is 'good' since tournament play results don't usually match 'home' play results unless you use the same conditions (and I don't think most people do). Furthermore, I get the distinct impression that the tournament players are a very vocal group and receive a disproportionate amount of attention from PP.

I have quite a few forces for WM/H (Cygnar, Mercs, Skorne, Circle and Legion armies, plus small forces for the other WM factions), and own all the books. If I don't like 2nd Ed, I'll stick to 1st. However, I am anxious to see and try the new rules (which are due for public testing on 6th April 2009) before I make my mind up.

PP also have a reasonable track record for listening to their player base (listening; they don't always act, and that can be a good thing when you consider how whiney most PP forumites are) and for now I trust them to do a decent job of 2nd Ed.

Finally, I'd like to point out that I think PP's stated intention is to keep releasing books with support for multiple factions as they have been so far. It's just that there are now a lot of books and the current factions are all pretty much complete, so it makes sense to 'reset' the format and allow new players the chance to catch up without splashing out ~£100 on books unless they want to. Personally, I like the multi-faction book format, and find that it helps limit the effects of power-creep.

And there you have it: my two bronze coins.

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 Post subject: Privateer Press changes
PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:42 pm 
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I did find it ironic that PP have released CMG and are going down the plastics route, especially after their initial public comments on such issues. Overall I think the new plastics are OK- the developments of new technologies and higher metal costs make plastics a viable alternative as GW/Perry/Warlord Games/Wargames Factory have shown. However one of the main selling points of plastics vs metal figures was supposed to be low price of plastics- I was surprised how expensive the PP plastics would be.

As for the version 2 of rules I have mixed feelings. On the one hand I am annoyed at having to go out and buy 3rd new rulebook having bought Prime and Prime Remix. But on the other hand I have found the continued flow of new releases for Warmachine/Hordes difficult to keep up with, especially if only play once or twice per month.

From what I can see PP have totally reworked the points costs. This means I will have to go though my Warmachine/Hordes armies and rework all my armies. That is frustrating and makes me wonder if worth the bother.

PP do make some gorgeous figures and I like the bacground they came up with for both Warmachine/Hordes. I will probably eventually give Warmachine v2 a chance. But wont be spending much money on new releases.

Cheers

James

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