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Falcons in Aspect Warhosts

 Post subject: Falcons in Aspect Warhosts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:59 pm 
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Quote: (semajnollissor @ 16 Feb. 2009, 18:08 )

How about using Falcons in the 4-strong aspect troupes in the alt-lists? That seems like a less points-restrictive option, but does it fair well?

For example, 2 shining spears, 2 dark reapers and 2 falcons. For 305 points, it doesn't seem that great, even if it has above average shooting ability.

So, does the point cost of a falcon as transport seem too high at both ends of the spectrum [small formation to big formation]? What about in the 6-strong formations of some of the other alt-lists?

I haven't tried it, but I think that 4 Fire Dragons in 2 Falcons and a Wave Serpent would be okay.  For 355 points, you'd have good AT fire backed by MW, with 7 strong FF units.  A move/fire/support would put a lot of attacks on a vehicle formation and should fit really well with the so-called Eldar "rolling assault."

That's pretty much the most effective use I can think of.  Reapers might work in the same combo if you want a multi-purpose formation rather than AV/WE killers.  There'd be a good mix of AP/AT.

I seriously doubt it would be broken with 50-point Falcons, coming in at 325 points total.  I've  been a proponent of 50-point falcons since before Swordwind came out, though, so I'm probably biased.

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 Post subject: Falcons in Aspect Warhosts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:23 am 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ 16 Feb. 2009, 10:45 )

Quote: (Malakai @ 16 Feb. 2009, 16:28 )

The ability to pick up a unit, deposit them, and then be on your way to attack a target separate from the infantry formation sounds like a bonus to me.

You can't do that with WE transports.  It takes a minimum of 2 activations in 2 separate turns to pick up and drop off infantry.  First, the mounting formations has to board using their action, then the combined/loaded WE can activate in the following turn.

If you allow joining/embarking and disembarking/breaking up in the same turn, it causes wonky results with every method anyone ever brainstormed on the playtest boards - formations double activating, moving faster than if they had organic transport, effectively free and unlimited combined assaults, etc..  Bad mojo.  You might be able to house rule it for friendly games, but no one could figure out a way to write hard rules for it that didn't have some sort of exploitable loophole.

I'm sorry, what I meant was that after the troops are departed the tanks can be on their way in subsequent activations to create mischief elsewhere.

Maybe you guys have been playing so long that the rules seem natural to you at this point, but coming from a new guy when I read that a Land Raider formation can't pick up and give a lift to some Marines during a battle it seemed a little weird to me (especially considering their high price).

IMO units that have the ability to transport should be able to transport using the rules for War Engines.

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 Post subject: Falcons in Aspect Warhosts
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:17 am 
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I still don't get it (too green I suppose  :sad: ).

What's wrong with Land Raiders taking a double action, picking up troops, move. Then move again and the troops dismount?

They could be treated as a single formation for rules purposes.

Same could be said if the Land Raiders started the game loaded up with a separate formation of say terminators.

Raiders take a double action and leaves the Terminators after the end of the first move.

The Terminators would be considered to have taken their entire "move" action while the Land Raiders continue on their way.

The Terminators can shoot with a -1 modifier (for taking the double action) just like the Raiders.

Am I missing something?

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 Post subject: Falcons in Aspect Warhosts
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:01 pm 
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Quote: (Malakai @ 22 Feb. 2009, 10:17 )

Am I missing something?

As Nealhunt has pointed out, allowing transports to carry other formations opens up very abusive situations.

As an extreme example imagine a falcon troop picking up the exarch survivors from 4 aspect warhosts.

The falcons could then do an assault with 8 inspiring characters without even using a commander character surely players can see the abusive side of that.

It has been attempted to work a rule in that allows transporting other formations but so far it's been impossible to get a rule that cannot be abused in some way.


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 Post subject: Falcons in Aspect Warhosts
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:23 pm 
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Quote: (dptdexys @ 22 Feb. 2009, 09:01 )

Quote: (Malakai @ 22 Feb. 2009, 10:17 )

Am I missing something?

As Nealhunt has pointed out, allowing transports to carry other formations opens up very abusive situations.

As an extreme example imagine a falcon troop picking up the exarch survivors from 4 aspect warhosts.

The falcons could then do an assault with 8 inspiring characters without even using a commander character surely players can see the abusive side of that.

It has been attempted to work a rule in that allows transporting other formations but so far it's been impossible to get a rule that cannot be abused in some way.


That's easy:

A formation capable of transport may only carry troops from one formation at a time.

I'm sorry to be so tenacious about this subject, but can anyone who reads the rules honestly say that it "feels" right to not allow formations capable of transport to pick up friendly troops?

I humbly propose that this problem is looked at again. This edition is now what six, seven years old now?

Surely with all of the experience you guys have obtained over the years playing you can attack the problem from a fresh perspective.

The idea that "It's been tried, it can't be done" sounds sort of defeatist.

I would like to move this problem to the main Epic Armageddon section instead of just the Eldar. Maybe more people will read it there.




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 Post subject: Falcons in Aspect Warhosts
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:45 pm 
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Quote: (Malakai @ 22 Feb. 2009, 21:23 )

I would like to move this problem to the main Epic Armageddon section instead of just the Eldar. Maybe more people will read it there.

I defintely recommend you start a new, more general, version of this topic in the Rules section rather than having me move this one.

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 Post subject: Falcons in Aspect Warhosts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:03 am 
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Quote: (Malakai @ 22 Feb. 2009, 21:23 )

That's easy:

A formation capable of transport may only carry troops from one formation at a time.

That would help on the abusive side but what would be the justification of only allowing 1 formation at a time to be carried especially if there are spare transport slots left ?.

We would then get new players asking why it hasn't been changed to allow remnants of other formations to be picked up too.

I'm sorry to be so tenacious about this subject, but can anyone who reads the rules honestly say that it "feels" right to not allow formations capable of transport to pick up friendly troops?


Then how could you justify only 1 formation being allowed.
Why would a Land Raider formation be allowed to pick up 2 Devastators from a formation but then have to close it's doors to a lone Terminator from another.



I humbly propose that this problem is looked at again. This edition is now what six, seven years old now?

Surely with all of the experience you guys have obtained over the years playing you can attack the problem from a fresh perspective.

The idea that "It's been tried, it can't be done" sounds sort of defeatist.
This is the 4th or 5th time this has been brought forward so it has been looked at quite often,you haven't discovered something that was overlooked in the original testing.

I don't think it is being defeatist,every one I know who plays epic doesn't want it s a new rule or even think it is needed.

You could always bring it up with your gaming group and house rule it if you prefer the option.

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 Post subject: Falcons in Aspect Warhosts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:16 am 
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Quote: (semajnollissor @ 24 Sep. 2007, 22:46 )

Hey,

I was wondering how often you guys see the falcon transport upgrade taken for Aspect hosts.

I don't think I've ever seen them taken. For me, it's often a case where they seem like they would be a cool addition, but I can never justify reducing my number of activations.

Does anyone think they cost too much?

In 3000 points games I've rarely seen them,as you have noticed it's  mainly due to activation count.
Although in our 6000 point games they are seen often as upgrades but at that level there isn't such a big problem with activation count.


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 Post subject: Falcons in Aspect Warhosts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:33 pm 
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Moved to the new thread.




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 Post subject: Falcons in Aspect Warhosts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:19 am 
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Where is this new thread? I posted there once but now it is gone?

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 Post subject: Falcons in Aspect Warhosts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:20 pm 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ 24 Feb. 2009, 10:19 )

Where is this new thread? I posted there once but now it is gone?

Malakai seems to have deleted it for some reason.   :sad:

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 Post subject: Falcons in Aspect Warhosts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:09 pm 
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His thread, his prerogative.  I think he was too emotionally committed to the idea.  It didn't matter what anyone else was saying, he was sure he was right and everyone else had to be wrong.  Been there, done that, and it ain't pretty watching somebody lose it over a silly game rule.

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 Post subject: Falcons in Aspect Warhosts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:01 pm 
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So, can I have his stuff?

aside: I had never noticed that the thread originator could delete the thread. I geuss I don't start enough threads. Hmm, I could delete this thread...


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 Post subject: Falcons in Aspect Warhosts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:39 pm 
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Quote: (Moscovian @ 24 Feb. 2009, 07:09 )

His thread, his prerogative.  I think he was too emotionally committed to the idea.  It didn't matter what anyone else was saying, he was sure he was right and everyone else had to be wrong.  Been there, done that, and it ain't pretty watching somebody lose it over a silly game rule.

That's not it at all. I deleted it because I found that no-one was interested in the idea no matter how feasible the idea was.

The only time I got "emotional" over the subject was when I felt I was being baited.

I'm sorry I deleted all of your comments (especially Black Legion who was the only one there who seemed to have an open mind), but at that point it was just an exercise in futility.

Everyone else was sure they were right and that I was wrong.

And yes, I've been there and done that too, with my Eldar list.

I'm tired of fighting against the entire forum over a couple of little rule changes. If you guys are happy with the way things are who am I to argue.

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 Post subject: Falcons in Aspect Warhosts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:45 pm 
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Malakai, we've bumped into each other a good number of times over the years so I feel I can tell you this... You weren't being baited.  His comments were valid and he certainly wasn't trolling.  

I know what it is like to get irritated on the forums (you know this better than most out here, if you recall my explosion over the art competition :vo ) so that is why I suggested taking a break from the thread.  I didn't mean for you to obliterate it!  :p

It is good to leave things like that up -at a minimum- so we don't have to go through the whole exercise again.




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