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Marines vs Tau, 3k

 Post subject: Marines vs Tau, 3k
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:24 am 
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Wow, that's the edited version of the post?! :O

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 Post subject: Marines vs Tau, 3k
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:49 am 
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E&C it would be much more helpful if you were to post up reports on the battles where you see problems with the Tau.

Just tearing other players armies and tactics apart doesn't demonstrate the problem to the rest of us and could be quite offensive to the players putting all the effort in to post up reports. ?Different play groups will play different ways with different types of lists and different ideas about the game. ?The whole issue of contention here is that others are not seeing the same sorts of problems as you and some of the other guys and I think the only way to clearly demonstrate it without creating a lot of hostility is if someone could post up a few battle reports to demonstrate the problems.

Otherwise it really leaves us stuck working independently on separate lists which suit the different play groups or with a project on freeze because the points aren't coming across in a non-confrontational manner.

I would really love to see compile a pdf demonstrating the list you guys have been using and some battle reports as a point of reference. ?Without that sort of work being done as a reference material it really makes it hard to collaborate online like this with a bunch of isolated play groups around the world.

Moving interstate between completely isolated play groups before I have found that the way people play a game can be very different meaning totally different lists and strategies are appropriate to different groups.

I really feel the Tau list is getting too political and maybe another starting point such as working consecutively on two lists (infantry based and titan heavy tank based) may be the way to go just so we can make a constructive start from a new point instead of getting stuck on the same arguments.





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 Post subject: Marines vs Tau, 3k
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:16 pm 
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I think one very good lesson to be drawn from this (and its a very well written report, nicely illustrated and hey, shouldn't we have a 'battle reports supplement? :) Joking aside it does serve to brilliantly highlight inspired moves and mistakes which will be illustrated outside of this bracket) for all shooting armies - not just Tau - is not to try and fight an assault (esp. air assault army) at there own game.

Intermingling may boost you but its a defensive measure, the iniative lies with the attacker.

Far better I have found to deploy in a mutuality supporting positions, lose the formation but do damage with supporting fire and then hit them afterward.

Tau specifically I find the best lander killers are hero spaceships. Let them come in, try and aa them, afterwards get a formation with 15cms of them (hopefully breaking them on there own a hacking them) then hit them with the hero. So effective in fact you can use it to deny a turn of the game to anything that wants to land.

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 Post subject: Marines vs Tau, 3k
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:33 pm 
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Personally I think the best approach is to make a list using only Forgeworld available models. Plus a list which reflects the way you buy stands / models and use them in battle.

Maybe 1 or 2 extra units if necessary.

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 Post subject: Marines vs Tau, 3k
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:42 pm 
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Please do not make blanket statements with no supporting arguments. It is not possible to rebut them, when there's no visible rationale. Yours is an extremely unfruitful method of discussion.


Okay I'll try and be more elucidative.

I've posted the rationale for fielding the Morays together.

Where?

Fielding Morays together is like fielding Warhounds together.

It costs the same price, but makes them more vulnerable (Both to assaults and ranged shooting), and less flexiable (They can't hit serperate targets, must move together, etc).

Can they be fielded together? Yes.
Should they be fielded together if you want to optimise the list? No.


Please address the points made or shut up.

I'm trying my best to offer you my opinion.

Note that they were the BTS formation and had a decent chance of surviving the battle.

Not if they're together ; A clipping engagement will break them every time and then they're lost to you for most of the game (We saw this happen multiple times until Jstr started fielding them alone, and moving them away from enemies at all times instead of towards enemies).


What about the list was unoptimized. Posting unsupported bullcrap is not gonna fly.

You took two formations of Fire Warriors instead of Crisis Suits.
You took Kroot.
You took very little AA (Morays can only be relied upon to protect themselves).

You didn't take any Broadside Suits, which are awesome at area denial because you can garrison them on Overwatch, and they can soak up enemy firepower with their RA4+ save.


-Fire warriors aren't as good at killing the enemy as Crisis Suits, because they're slower, have worse initiative, have a worse armour save, and taking Drones doesn't effectively give them ATSKNF (With Crisis Suits, they then become almost invulnerable to BM's until you've killed all the drones).

- Kroot... not as good a choice as more Crisis Suits with Drones, or aircraft.

- Fire Warriors are only worth taking in the SG list if you give them an Etherial and garrison them as a speedbump.

- You took no groundbased AA except the Morays (Which you kept together and so diminished their limited AA umbrella even further). I'm not surprised than an air-assault Marine army was able to have its way with this army list.


Then, after taking this not excellent list with poor AA, you deployed important formations intermingled, and consequently lost them on turn one.

So basically, as TRC says, this Batrep is very good for pointing out 'what not to do' against an air assault army list.

I'm sorry that you find my words offensive Asaura.

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 Post subject: Marines vs Tau, 3k
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:45 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Jun. 10 2008,13:16)
QUOTE
Far better I have found to deploy in a mutuality supporting positions, lose the formation but do damage with supporting fire and then hit them afterward.

Tau specifically I find the best lander killers are hero spaceships. Let them come in, try and aa them, afterwards get a formation with 15cms of them (hopefully breaking them on there own a hacking them) then hit them with the hero. So effective in fact you can use it to deny a turn of the game to anything that wants to land.

The Tau setup in this game was almost purely a system of mutually supporting positions, just like you describe. There was one exception: the intermingled Crisis + Railheads, and it was clearly a blunder. In the setup picture, one can clearly see that the Tau could have just extended their central setup to the right -- still within range of the forward Overwatching FW positions.

On the Hero bit, I agree completely. In fact, in our last tournament I used a Hero to hinder SM air assaults for *two turns*. The idea was to purposefully fail to activate the Hero late on turn 1, once the SM T-Hawks had already decided not to land. I succeeded in failing the activation (by getting a -1 for retain) and the Hero went on to threaten them again on turn 2  :D This raised the question of whether one can use a SC to reroll a *successful* activation roll...


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 Post subject: Marines vs Tau, 3k
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:08 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 10 2008,13:42)
QUOTE

Okay I'll try and be more elucidative.


Thanks. I'm sure you are not just pulling your thoughts from thin air, but when you don't write down the reasons for your conclusions, the rest of us simply can not understand what is said.

I've posted the rationale for fielding the Morays together.

Where?

Post #5. It was to make them the BTS objective.

Everyone probably realizes the downsides in flexibility. Your point about vulnerability to clipping assaults is just the kind of reasoning I was after when I asked you to show your supporting arguments. Thank you.

There is a downside (flex, vulnerability), but there is an upsides as well (having a fearless BTS with Deflectors). Put together, the issue is not quite as one-sided as you claim.

I agree on moving away from the enemy. That's what I ended up doing, once I broke...  :p My first activation with the Morays should've been to the rear as well.

What about the list was unoptimized? Posting unsupported bullcrap is not gonna fly.

You took two formations of Fire Warriors instead of Crisis Suits.
You took Kroot.
You took very little AA (Morays can only be relied upon to protect themselves).


Are you serious? Kroot are excellent. They are cheap. They infiltrate with CC4+. They are Scouts. They are the reason I field FW in the first place, due to the current restrictions on auxiliaries.

Having just a little AA was a conscious risk, not an optimization issue. In my view, AA does not help against marine air assaults. It merely makes for fatter targets. The single exception is IG Hydras, which are so good you want them whether or not there are air assaults coming your way.

I will not respond further to your ideas about what makes a list optimized. If your idea of being optimized consists of maxing out on Crisis suits and drones, I am uninterested in the whole exercise. I've done my part with degenerate lists, and I can't be bothered anymore.

Finally, I do not find your words offensive. However, I have a problem with unsupported assertions. This post you just wrote was much better in this regard.


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 Post subject: Marines vs Tau, 3k
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:27 pm 
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Are you serious? Kroot are excellent.


Yep I'm serious... the points are better spent on spamming Crisis or Broadside Suits.

And as you say yourself, you have to compromise your list by taking Fire Warriors to gain access to the Kroot.

Having just a little AA was a conscious risk...In my view, AA does not help against marine air assaults.

You knew ahead of the game that you'd be facing Marines?
I know Hena said he knew he'd be facing Tau.


I will not respond further to your ideas about what makes a list optimized. If your idea of being optimized consists of maxing out on Crisis suits and drones, I am uninterested in the whole exercise.

Playing those kinds of min/maxed lists (And as TRC says, there are several other min/maxed Tau lists available), and reporting that the Tau list has some balance/style of play problems, and those issues never being dealt with (Beyond hearing that the style of the SG list will not change), is what made us stop using the SG list and use the FW list instead.

It seems to me that I wouldn't be wrong to draw the conclusion from your words that you're playing the Tau, instead of playtesting the Tau, at this point?





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 Post subject: Marines vs Tau, 3k
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:17 pm 
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(Hena @ Jun. 08 2008,19:41)
QUOTE
Tau Defence Force

Battlesuit Cadre
 + Supreme Commander
 + Drones
Armoured Mobile Hunter Cadre
 - 6 Railcannon Hammerheads
 +  Networked Drones
Armoured Mobile Hunter Cadre
 - 6 ioncannon Hammerheads
2 x Firewarrior Cadre
 + Drones
2 x Gun Drone Wing
2 x Kroot Kindred
Tigershark Squadron
 - Tigershark
Moray Squadron
 - 2 Moray Assault Ship

Some questions on force selection.

First off not being fearless I can see a reason for squadroning the morays. The WE damage rule means you can take more damage and stay combat effective, at the cost of activations. I would consider also getting that shield (it comes with the SC?) and lead with that in case of facing Shadowswords or similar.

Firewarriors - why? (or at least why not mechanised)
Excellent mechanised troops the armour save, excellent 30cm weapons and armour save means they are great for aggressive attack. But... non mechanised? Unless the enemy is dropping around you you won't be in range, the armour save isn't as useful for non mech troops as you will probably be skulking in cover.

I would recommend if you want garrisons or similar in the future to use the human traitors!

Personally I've found the ion heads as a good substitute for mech firewarriors, but if AP is covered the longer ranged rails are better.

So how have you found the kroot in general?

Out of interest how do you take the aerial camera shots? :)

Surprisingly spread out deployment for facing a air assault army on reflection (we may differ here on this - to me it looks like the outer formations can be clipped, something crisis wouldn't suffer from as well, next time use them as flank guards?). With that much infantry I would (if I were Tau) have placed the marine objectives on the half way line 30cm apart.


(asaura @ Jun. 10 2008,14:08)
QUOTE
Having just a little AA was a conscious risk, not an optimization issue. In my view, AA does not help against marine air assaults. It merely makes for fatter targets. The single exception is IG Hydras, which are so good you want them whether or not there are air assaults coming your way.

As a note I always try and take AA with key formations.

Tau wise even more so for two reasons.

The BM I lay *might* help (but come on, not that much!).

They have a markerlight!!!

Sticking them in helps a little with the Tau.

The above combined with their inate stats means for me they are a great unit.

PLus of course here it would have caused problems for those fragile little thunderbolts!

Otherwise AA for me is to bm stuff. The more shots (hopefully in and out) the more event he toughest flyers will miss activations.

Are you serious? Kroot are excellent. They are cheap. They infiltrate with CC4+. They are Scouts. They are the reason I field FW in the first place, due to the current restrictions on auxiliaries.


I missed the kroot/aux limit bit! Yes they are good if you can keep them in cover. The small unit size though means they are in trouble if they get out of cover.

How would you feel about a formation twice as strong (for appropriate points). More chance of mugging Orks and similar.

I've done my part with degenerate lists, and I can't be bothered anymore.

You mean min maxed?





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 Post subject: Marines vs Tau, 3k
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:08 pm 
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(Hena @ Jun. 09 2008,23:39)
QUOTE

How did the termies close combat the skimmers?

Then grumbling about one way ticket the Morays advance. They slowly turn and target the Terminator detachment 2.


Do you generally ignore thawks on the ground to hit them in the air? I find getting them on the ground and taking more damage from what they have transported instead is better int eh long run.

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 Post subject: Marines vs Tau, 3k
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:51 pm 
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A few more comments, starting with big-ticket items.

1) E&C is quite correct when he describes the BR as a fairly uninteresting case study of how not to defend against an SM drop army, even though the thing is technically written as a full BR with pics and everything. In this regard, focusing on Morays etc is not going to shed much light on anything. The battle was lost when I set up my Crisis intermingled with the Railheads so that Hena got to support an air assault by two hard-hitting formations. Or, more precisely, Hena won the battle when he decided to exploit the weakness.

2) Specific points on details:

TRC, you asked how the termies CC'd skimmers. -- They did not. They CC'd drones and Crisis suits, which were intermingled with skimmers. The current assault hit allocation rules then worked in favor of the termies and hackdown hits did the rest.

Morays. Morays are always fearless and always have the deflector shield. TRC, you may have mixed Morays with Scorpionfish in this regard.

Fire warriors. I never use them mechanized. I find them to be good garrison forces. I always take two, just to place them on Overwatch during setup. This time, I tried kitting them with Drones.

3) Objective placement

TRC asked about objective placement. I deliberately set up one of my T&H objectives near the SM Blitz. This was done after looking at the marine roster. I could threaten two goals with a single set of Drones if I could arrange for the big fight to take place in the center of the field. To back the drones up, I had planned for the other right flank infantry to help, as can be seen by what the right flank Kroot did on turn 1: marched forward to threaten the Blitz. This ploy worked, too, but unfortunately I lost the fight for the center in the end.

4) Peculiarities of this particular battle

Hena asked me to field Tau with Morays, since he was interested in Morays. I've never fielded any, due to not having the models painted up. This thing gave me the excuse to build and paint them while visiting the in-laws.

Other than that, I was playing blind. I thought that Hena would not use anything with a lot of TK or other anti-Moray stuff, since he specifically asked for the Morays.

5) My personal gaming philosophy

I have zero interest in categorizing this as playing or playtesting. Epic is a minor hobby of mine. I play seriously, but not so far as to stop it being fun. Hence, I don't care if an all-Crisis list with 2 Morays and 2 Tigersharks were the best thing I could field. I don't even have the models and could not care less.


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 Post subject: Marines vs Tau, 3k
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:25 pm 
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(asaura @ Jun. 10 2008,17:51)
QUOTE
I have zero interest in categorizing this as playing or playtesting. Epic is a minor hobby of mine. I play seriously, but not so far as to stop it being fun. Hence, I don't care if an all-Crisis list with 2 Morays and 2 Tigersharks were the best thing I could field. I don't even have the models and could not care less.

That's a perfectly good reason. I too prefer to play with unoptimised lists, as I think it leads to a fun game.

However, the problems we see with the Tau list are not due to unoptimised lists, the problem is that the optimised lists are too good, and so this battle report doesn't help disprove that hypothesis.

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 Post subject: Marines vs Tau, 3k
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:38 pm 
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(asaura @ Jun. 10 2008,17:51)
QUOTE
TRC, you asked how the termies CC'd skimmers. -- They did not. They CC'd drones and Crisis suits, which were intermingled with skimmers. The current assault hit allocation rules then worked in favor of the termies and hackdown hits did the rest.

Ah of course I had forgotten about that. Hmm, certainly affects army composition for certain forces. For others like say Eldar it might be an idea staying in waveserpents to be less of a cc target!

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 Post subject: Marines vs Tau, 3k
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:28 pm 
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In essence, true power and/or meta gamers will always find a max-max list. I think you should not be worried about such extremes. It is the balanced lists that count the more.

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 Post subject: Marines vs Tau, 3k
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:58 am 
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(blackhorizon @ Jun. 10 2008,19:28)
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In essence, true power and/or meta gamers will always find a max-max list. I think you should not be worried about such extremes. It is the balanced lists that count the more.

Umm, I am not so sure BL. I guess it depends on the definition of "balanced" and how people are playing as a whole. Because Power gamers are very competitive by nature, I would actually suggest that analysing their army compositions and battle results are probably one of the better ways to determine whether a list is balanced or not. However, the cost and availability of models and different ?Special rules? tend to affect this, as does the extent and use of terrain.

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