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Black Legion review
kev101
 Post subject: Black Legion review
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:44 pm 
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ok i have only ever been able to field one and he is

but i see your point

but for the most part just last week it 12 out of 14 befor i needed the 6+

and it was also the same at open war  were he did not take as meny shots in one go but my be close over the two turns he was on the board and did not need to use the 6+

but he will now die first shot tomorrow

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Chroma
 Post subject: Black Legion review
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:58 pm 
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(dptdexys @ Apr. 30 2008,19:35)
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Kev101,don't forget the DP only gets the invulnerable if he,'s the supreme commander.

Actually, Daemon Princes don't get invulerable save at all on their own, Supreme Commander or not.

The only way for them to get one is to add a Champion of Chaos or an Icon Bearer to them.

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Black Legion review
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:18 pm 
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Personally (note that I don't play Chaos in any scale!), I'd prefer to see a chaos hydra or hunter (neither of which actually exist in 40k, I might add*), instead of Oblits with AA.  It would certainly be easier to balance that way.

*Hydra is a FW-only model, and the Hunter does not exist (Whirlwind Hyperios does, but that's also a FW model).  The Hunter is only mentioned in passing as being an older AA platform than a Hyperios, in the Whirlwind entry of Imperial Armor II.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Black Legion review
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:51 pm 
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(Chroma @ Apr. 30 2008,19:58)
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(dptdexys @ Apr. 30 2008,19:35)
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Kev101,don't forget the DP only gets the invulnerable if he,'s the supreme commander.

Actually, Daemon Princes don't get invulerable save at all on their own, Supreme Commander or not.

The only way for them to get one is to add a Champion of Chaos or an Icon Bearer to them.

Which is kinda odd.

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kev101
 Post subject: Black Legion review
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 12:11 am 
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that is kinda odd this is what i've been lead to belive

and after reading again you are right their is no 6+save
sorry any body i used it on but still again if i've used it once in my at most 10 games that still dose not account for the fact that the 3 + is still super hard

choas is my army of choice and as much as i like his 3+
i think  it is to much for his points cost

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hallonapl
 Post subject: Black Legion review
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 3:59 pm 
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(pixelgeek @ Apr. 30 2008,16:28)
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(Nicodemus @ Apr. 30 2008,04:10)
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But basically we would still be "inventing" Chaos Hunter because "official 40K" does not have it.

Which means it doesn't go into the list.

We don't invent things for official lists. Jervis does.

I fail to see the difference between inventing "new" units and inventing stats for old units. Every Unit is just a "name" and perhaps a "type" to which we add extra rules (like AP- and AT-attacks, speed, FF/CC-values...).
Some of the changes discussed for many units are pretty big, so making up a new unit with "reasonable" stats should not be too big a deal.

I can see your qualms about it, PG; I have that much immagination.
The goal here as I perceive it is to not destroy more than we build and stay true to the spirit of the gaming universe.

Therefore I claim that we as a community are just as entitled to create new units as an "official" person given that the development of the game has been entrusted to us (the community).

PS.
I am still not sure about the officialness of the Chaos List seeing as it almost completely lacks support
DS.
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Steve54
 Post subject: Black Legion review
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 4:59 pm 
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If by support you mean models then I have to say that putting together about 15k of Black Legion has been more enjoyable and satisfying than any of my other armies. Mixing models from the Chaos horde, old SM vehicles, dreads and Imperial titans - with Chaos pieces, old robots , FW flyers and warmaster figures makes a really enjoyable project and makes every chaos army unique

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hallonapl
 Post subject: Black Legion review
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:31 pm 
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(Steve54 @ May 07 2008,17:59)
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If by support you mean models then I have to say that putting together about 15k of Black Legion has been more enjoyable and satisfying than any of my other armies. Mixing models from the Chaos horde, old SM vehicles, dreads and Imperial titans - with Chaos pieces, old robots , FW flyers and warmaster figures makes a really enjoyable project and makes every chaos army unique

Yes, I know that it is fun to build a chaos army. I am in the process myself, but without old stuff (usually bought off e-bay) and warmaster it would be impossible.

While conversions are fun and give character the army still has no real support, sadly. What is even more sad is that Specialist Games has started to feel abandoned. Is that so?

I wish I had stumbled over this hobby two decades ago before GW too became a Big Corporation™.  :blues:
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Black Legion review
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 12:32 am 
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Well, you have perhaps the toughest review task of anyone!
That?s not to say the list is very unbalanced, rather the way it was developed sadly left many playtesters fed up (some with playtesting in general sadly) and others feeling their views were a) never listened to and b) were right in retrospect (really doesn?t matter though if they were or weren?t!).
So Chaos undoubtedly tops the bitching league for Epic armies (conversely I reckon Orks come bottom, what happened to all that animosity?).

Your task seems to be two fold (where does the phrase two fold come from?).

Fold 1
Do the minimum set of fixes as requested by Neal in his master thread (indeed I am surprised at how many tweaks Neal suggests for the minimum!).

Fold 2
Sort it out. By this I mean the air support, the demon rules, the warengines, the unit stats, the stuff that makes making sub list quite hard to develop (and come on this is a sub list unlike the marine core list, it shouldn?t be making the other sub lists lives hard) and all the other problems, real or imagined. Nothing has to necessarily change but really it should be hanging together better, perhaps with something that describes what sort of force it is supposed to portray.

(Oh and flak wise, have fun :) Anyone know if Forgeworld will answer this deficiency anytime soon?)

My comments have mostly been already made and quickly to.

The biggest problem for me is how you pick the list. You don?t go far wrong by treating the maximums as minimums.

So the 3 Ferals (1/3 ally allowance)
The 2 single Decimators (assault allowance)
The 2 Chosen formations
The Raptor formation
The Infantry formation (free supreme commander)
The forlorn hope (scouts for initial anti terminator work)

So a minimum of 2410 points for 10 activations and almost 600 points for making the formations proper fighting size, adding upgrades, obliterators, some bikes, etc. Is that what the black legion should look like? The list has flaws certainly but properly fleshed out it has enough to occupy defenders until the WE get close. I know they have similar problems to Space Marines (that they operate air assaults in support of Titan formations), but really the loss of ATSKNF should be balanced by greater numbers, and greater numbers for the first two turns should count for more on the ground than ATSKNF.

So I wish you luck and I await your cut down list of changes.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Black Legion review
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 1:36 am 
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Anyone know if Forgeworld will answer this deficiency anytime soon?


As far as I know they will not, though I'll try digging to find out (Last I heard Aeronatica was considered 'done' and FW were moving onto other projects as-yet undecided).

Personally, I'd just let Chaos Marines use the Hunter, and nerf the OTT Obliterator unit.

Frankly, I think a minimal list of changes to the Black Legion list will only be the precursor to a more comprehensive attempt to balance the list.

Things like fixing the AA of the BL would fall into the second review (October, according to the Net:EA schedule).

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Dave
 Post subject: Black Legion review
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 3:48 am 
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Didn't a fan list allow a Rhino to upgrade and carry a Havoc launcher, which had an AA attack?

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Black Legion review
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 10:17 am 
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Flak should probably get its own thread, not hijack this one :)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Black Legion review
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 10:22 am 
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Yup, fixing the BL's flak doesn't fall into the remit of 'minimal tournament changes'.

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