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Marine Tournament changes, a proposal

 Post subject: Marine Tournament changes, a proposal
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 2:55 pm 
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(Hena @ Apr. 30 2008,07:57)
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Dreadnought (save 3+ and allow 1-3).
This is a hard one. I think that Dreadnought is very viable using the rulebook stats. However there is little opposition to the change. But is it really needed in the minimal list? I think not.

Are dreads a common feature of SM armies nowadays? I don't use my dreads because they slow down a fast formation, and I can't get enough of them in a garrison formation to make garrisoning viable as a common tactic (like it is for orks). I wonder if even this change will make dreads worth taking. It seems to me that the best use for dreads is in a garrison. I've never been a big fan of garrisoning my marines, but I think a devastator or tactical detachment would become a viable garrison if this change is made. Personally, I'd rather the upgrade be 1-4, since the way I see it, if you take dreads, you're only going to take one other AV, so the number of dreads available has to make up for the loss of those important BM sinks. I think 4 devastators, 4 dreads, and a Hunter or LR or Vindy would make a great garrisson, and maybe allow for that to become a common tactic. But, we'll try 3 first, and see how it goes.


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 Post subject: Marine Tournament changes, a proposal
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 6:36 pm 
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(Chroma @ May 01 2008,12:39)
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(Hena @ May 01 2008,05:58)
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175 for 2 (cannot use 5 points), 275 for 3 (cannot use 20 points) and 350 for 4 (cannot use 10 points).

Does anyone buy *single* Land Raiders for a formation?  Isn't it normally two or four?

Why not make it Land Raiders: 2 for 175 points or 4 for 350?  Then it's in easy increments of 25.

Has *anyone* purchased *3* Land Raiders for a Terminator detachment?

I never take 3 Land Raiders, but I certainly take 1 Land Raider for my Devestators on occasion... in fact that's the only place I've found them useful.

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 Post subject: Marine Tournament changes, a proposal
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 7:27 pm 
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(Hena @ Apr. 30 2008,13:57)
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Here goes, first the pure marine changes

1. Well you will see a lot more Land Raider formations! Question is, surely a Land Raider is worth more than 19 points over a predator? Better firepower, now FF, RA, though loses 5cm speed.

Funnily enough after extensive testing with other lists I reckon a terminator mech formation is definatively worth no more than 650 points.

8. Vindicators. I've tried them with the speed and walker (indeed there should be playtests up somewhere with them being used). The Predator D is a better choice. Effectively the same firepower, now the same FF and a 10cm counter charge. Other lists give a choice of vindies and preds for support and if you go for speed/walker (or even just speed as you propose) you lose out to preds everytime. please take a wider marine view, not just this one list.

Navy and Titan changes (depends on TRC agreeing on these as well)


Well sort of :) The two lists could have different costs. For instance can marines or guard clear flak for bombers to act more effectively? That would figure into its price. Likewise who needs fighters more?

The only thing to agree on is whether or not bombers go to 3bp (I say they do).

Landing Craft (+25 cost).
This isn't very often seen in tournaments. At least I don't recall seeing that very often in posts listing the armies. While it is good and allows dropping vehicles, it's also vulnerable to critical and very "all your eggs in one basket" kind of thing. I would prefer to change the Critical and upgrading the cost a bit more than 25, but that's outside the realm of minimal changes.


They are appearing more and more as people get more confident with them. They are fantastic, but if you don't believe me... :)

Scouts (50 points for all snipers).
This is in same group as Dreadnought as to why it's not there.

Scout change is needed for two reasons. One its currently a pointless upgrade (one sniper upgade or a razorback, chose now!) and two there is no model! I can't convert 6mm infantry. All or nothing is just so much infinitely better!

Dreadnought (save 3+ and allow 1-3).
This is a hard one. I think that Dreadnought is very viable using the rulebook stats. However there is little opposition to the change. But is it really needed in the minimal list? I think not.

Leaving aside the 1-x which is army list specific please strongly consider either 3+ saves or 5+RA for other lists or the dreadnaught remains as unusable there and changing the chassis is not something other lists can do.

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 Post subject: Marine Tournament changes, a proposal
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 11:32 pm 
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(semajnollissor @ May 01 2008,14:55)
QUOTE

(Hena @ Apr. 30 2008,07:57)
QUOTE
Dreadnought (save 3+ and allow 1-3).
This is a hard one. I think that Dreadnought is very viable using the rulebook stats. However there is little opposition to the change. But is it really needed in the minimal list? I think not.

Are dreads a common feature of SM armies nowadays? I don't use my dreads because they slow down a fast formation, and I can't get enough of them in a garrison formation to make garrisoning viable as a common tactic (like it is for orks). I wonder if even this change will make dreads worth taking. It seems to me that the best use for dreads is in a garrison. I've never been a big fan of garrisoning my marines, but I think a devastator or tactical detachment would become a viable garrison if this change is made. Personally, I'd rather the upgrade be 1-4, since the way I see it, if you take dreads, you're only going to take one other AV, so the number of dreads available has to make up for the loss of those important BM sinks. I think 4 devastators, 4 dreads, and a Hunter or LR or Vindy would make a great garrisson, and maybe allow for that to become a common tactic. But, we'll try 3 first, and see how it goes.

Because their lack of speed and limited transport options are a hinderance, Dreadnoughts have only two roles in the Space Marine army :-
1) "Hardening" an airborn assault - Add them to Devastators in Drop Pods, or even try a couple with some Terminators in a Landing Craft. (Note adding one to some Tacs in a THawk is a poor choice).

2) "Hardening" a defence - As semajnollissor suggests, add two "shooting" Dreads and a hunter to some Devastators on Garrison duty, and watch them shred opposing formations.

But they do need better armour to achieve these two roles, hence I thought 3+ was agreed on (not 5+RA Chris, even though it is arguably more appropriate)

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 Post subject: Marine Tournament changes, a proposal
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 11:36 pm 
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I'd prefer 5+ RA

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 Post subject: Marine Tournament changes, a proposal
PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 12:41 am 
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Yes 5+RA should be enough.
And a Dreadnought formation :)

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 Post subject: Marine Tournament changes, a proposal
PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 2:21 am 
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Yes, 5+ RA is somewhat new, its not as powerful vs AT fire (5/9 protection vs 6/9) but a darn sight better vs the bane of marine armies, MW fire.

Dread formations in other lists :)

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 Post subject: Marine Tournament changes, a proposal
PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 11:49 am 
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Was going to post, but Chris has said everything I was going to... regarding vindis (will still be crap so add something more), Landing Craft, Dreads and Scouts. In other words yes to changes on all these, with LC perhaps least important, but if you are making this many changes in total then why bother leaving any of these out?!

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 Post subject: Marine Tournament changes, a proposal
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 12:53 am 
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I think if you don't got he whole hog with the vindi the formation should be 225 and the upgrade 50.

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 Post subject: Marine Tournament changes, a proposal
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 8:20 am 
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Indeed.

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 Post subject: Marine Tournament changes, a proposal
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 11:13 am 
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(Ginger @ May 02 2008,00:32)
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[quote="Hena,Apr. 30 2008,07:57"]
1) "Hardening" an airborn assault - Add them to Devastators in Drop Pods, or even try a couple with some Terminators in a Landing Craft. (Note adding one to some Tacs in a THawk is a poor choice).

2) "Hardening" a defence - As semajnollissor suggests, add two "shooting" Dreads and a hunter to some Devastators on Garrison duty, and watch them shred opposing formations.

But they do need better armour to achieve these two roles, hence I thought 3+ was agreed on (not 5+RA Chris, even though it is arguably more appropriate)

I am eager to see which formation you want to "shred" with a Devastator formation, a Hunter and two Dreadnoughts. Beside that this formation would be 425pts it?s simply worth nothing in a list which needs speed over all other assets. (Every Marine player ever encountered the Indestructable TAU MW-of-Doom army will at least partially agree)

I am with you that the additional MW attack in assaults is invaluable but expensive. It?s a good addition to tacticals on a Thawk, else it has the same price as a character upgrade but adds one more unit and adds an additional conventional attack (CC variant).

3+ is a little bu?t over the top I think. Armies without MW (the few I know) would have a hard time while against MW blistering armies they are as useless as before.

So stick with 5+ RA, gives em the opportunity to survive an encounter even against MW targets (which they really should, because they are designed to to so) ?nd on the other side MW weak armies will only see the armor save increased from 50 to 56%.

Alternatively they could only use up one transport slot, would make them a really noteabley choice for Air assaults. (or increase the capacity of the Thawk to 10. If Tau are allowed, why not Marines :p )

But as always only my 0.02 cent

Soren

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 Post subject: Marine Tournament changes, a proposal
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 11:18 am 
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Soren sums up 5+RA well.

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 Post subject: Marine Tournament changes, a proposal
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 12:42 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ May 31 2008,12:18)
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Soren sums up 5+RA well.

short said TRC...yes ^^

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 Post subject: Marine Tournament changes, a proposal
PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 11:14 am 
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I would support Hena's proposed changes and I can go either way with the Dreadnought save.

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