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[Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
Crabowl
 Post subject: [Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:01 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Dec. 11 2007,23:39)
QUOTE
I think you've got the map backwards, actually. The idea is to set up the two objectives on the titan half of the board at opposite ends of the board, forcing the titans to either split up to defend them or allow you to claim them both. While the titan player will want to put his centrally to try and take both of them with a single titan.

I got the map backwards simply because people assume I do things the same way as they do. I dunno how many times I have to say that the objectives don't matter, all the titan player has to do is contest them so neither player can win with them. There is no need to split the titans if the titan player doesn't want to or there are shadowsword companies that require some banzai hounds to give their lives for the cause.


(Ilushia @ Dec. 11 2007,23:39)
QUOTE
Hydras for AA and cheap activations, Sentinels give me some cheap scouts, the rest is mostly effective, deathstrikes are so low-cost there's almost no reason not to take them against just about anyone. Shadowswords can kill three of anything they feel like more or less every turn. Storm Troopers in Valks can shoot or assault pretty reasonably against infantry and tanks, Tank Co is fairly solid and has nice long range, and the Reg. HQ is there because IG want a supreme commander whenever possible. Against a titan centered list my first two actions would almost certainly be to have the shadowswords or tank company strip your BTS titan of its shields, then retain with the deathstrikes to kill it.

It's good that at least some lists can do it by shooting. Then again if the BTS reaver is running behind cover you need 3+ to hit and the shadowswords 3 x 3+ D3 (advance) would take the shields down in average and then there's 2 x 2+ D6's that have to do 6 points of damage. It's not entirely unlikely that the reaver is still standing after that and you would have to commit even more points to kill it.


(Ilushia @ Dec. 11 2007,23:39)
QUOTE
Unfortunately space marines don't have a lot of good answers to titans (Even in OTHER lists they tend to get eaten alive by them. Especially Eldar titans with MW shots), and MW attacks only compounds this as their armor is no longer so useful. Ork Great Gargant with soopa gunz is another good example, 8 BP (That's 3 blast templates and an extra blast marker) of MW shots at 90cm range on a double. Which will muck up space marines something fierce and be their fearless 12 DC break their spirit. Cheaper then a Warlord, too.

I would say the issues seen actually more compounds a problem with the Space Marines then it does the AMTL, since as far as I've seen they're the only list which seriously suffers from a lack of solutions to fighting titans. (Being the only army which doesn't have its own ground-based WEs probably only compounds this, to be honest).

There can be one gargant or one eldar titan in a regular game and it can be countered with scouts so it will never earn its points. Against these lists it is possible to win with objectives or kills and they are balanced. To make things balanced with titans you have to either tune them down or to give all the other lists shadowsword companies and deathstrike missiles to fight them. I would say it is easier to tune the titans down than to give new toys to all the existing lists and then see how they work.

This here thing is an animation that shows how unimportant the objectives are and that it doesn't matter where the enemy puts them. It has 10 images in it so it should count for 10000 words, right?

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Crabowl
 Post subject: [Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:06 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 12 2007,02:21)
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Umm, Siegers are one of the worse armies to take verses Titans, especially assault titans, because they are immobile. You know exactly where they will be. And you can't 'build' your list to fit titans without losing to everyone else. In the past I have never managed to kill a battle titan, the best I have done is break it (at which point they charge).

But lets get this straight - you are complaining that you can't beat Titans in a shooting match?

No. I'm complaining that not all armies are balanced against titans due to the lack of TK cannons and they can't even assault them because there is no rule that states that titans must walk alone. When both of these apply the titans can simply stay together and kill anything that comes close (within 100cm). Sure you can do suicide attacks with falcons, ork CoS or annihilators but after you do that they die. All that is left are 90cm+ TK super heavies or assaults (which end horribly because of all the surrounding support fire).


(The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 12 2007,02:21)
QUOTE
Titans are not as manoverable as you think. I beat them with marines by using that speed (from transports, thunderhawks and teleports) to fight when I want to.

Single titans yes, try 7 titans in a bunch where there is potentially 5 titans within FF range with a bunch of macro etc. weapons.


(The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 12 2007,02:21)
QUOTE
If you are going to spend all that time in your half with 60cm range weapons you are not going to hit anything unless the enemy is foolish enough to come and present a target.

Yes it's possible to sit in the corner against these but it sort of makes the game somewhat uninteresting.


(The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 12 2007,02:21)
QUOTE
And the map is the other way - in Epic you place your opponents objectives. So you have a problem - how to secure your own objectives and get the enemies. By the simple measure of putting troops in front and out of LOS I can ensure you have to fight me for a turn, so no last turn grabs. If you refuse to leg it forward I would be looking at 2-1 hopefully to me, more if I have killed the BTS.

And of course an assault titan fit is stuffed by corner to corner deployment.

Yes I got the map wrong because I wouldn't deploy them like that. See the animation in my reply to Ilushia's post and that's the worst way the objectives can be deployed from a titan player's point of view. It doesn't matter where the remaining two are placed because a titan player can just ignore them.


(The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 12 2007,02:21)
QUOTE
Using those weapons for non assault purposes is crazy. You are going to get 32 TLD shots and 16 plasma shots from both Reaver titans over the whole game. You want to play slow, I would watch you do it and get ready to kill stuff when you make your 'break' on turn three, with hopefully stuff to contest your attempts and stop you even getting 1 VP. Plasma ?- especially on warhounds - is a going forward weapon ideally to make use of the turn you are doing nothing. Otherwise regular weapons are simply better.

There's potentially 32TLD, and 16 Plasma from reavers and 64VMB and 24 Plasmas from warhounds. All have a minimum range of 100cm and hit with either 3+ or 4+ when doubling. Those potential 40 MW3+ shots alone kill 27 units and the TLDs and VMBs kill a lot more. If I only need 251 points difference I'd say that's quite an overkill. Perhaps using those MWFF weapons for self defence purposes is crazy but for me they're doing their job splendidly.


(The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 12 2007,02:21)
QUOTE
In essence Titan armies have the firepower and resilance, their enemies have the activations (massively important), speed and toys (air assaults, teleports, cheap TK etc etc).

The single formation tactic makes it even harder to knock titans out and makes the low number of activations less of an issue.


(The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 12 2007,02:21)
QUOTE
I don't suppose you are in the UK over Christmas? I could then demonstrate how to stuff titans.

If Hena allows AMTL2 (or any other TL lists) in his January/February tournament, I can go there and see how people like fighting the single formation tactic but UK is a bit too far. IBM should invent teleport already.


(The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 12 2007,02:21)
QUOTE
Really the problem we encountered was Titans never being able to win (but then again we didn't have discounted Titans).

There shouldn't be too many discounted titans running around unless you're willing to take only two CC/FF/max 30cm guns.


(The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 12 2007,02:21)
QUOTE
Incidentally I take it you don't like playing Siegemasters where you have in essence one strategy? :)

Yeah I probably would never want to play with them unless it would be in a campaign or some other setting.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:21 pm 
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(Crabowl @ Dec. 12 2007,13:06)
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Single titans yes, try 7 titans in a bunch where there is potentially 5 titans within FF range with a bunch of macro etc. weapons.

Some very interesting discussions Crabowl

First off, clumping together like that, anyone with barrage weapons is going to be hitting multiple Titans per attack... not for damage, but to place Blast markers. ?I'm not sure the exact distance between Titans, but they look pretty dang close together! ?A clump like that vs a Drop Pod army is going to see a great number of Titans on the verge of breaking if they're caught in the Deathwinds.

Second, you do know that war engines block line of sight? ?With good positioning, the opponent can place units so that many of the supporting Titans will not be able to firefight through other Titans, weakening your hedgehog a bit and making your very vulnerable to a clipping intermingled assault on one of the perimeter Warhounds.

Third, since you can only move two formations in a row, how do you intend to keep them all clumped together like that? ?Surely a Titan will be "exposed" at times.

I would love to see a battle report vs Eldar or Orks with your "Titan Turtle" tactic.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:39 pm 
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Historically, Marines have been weak against Titans.

This should have changed slightly with the change to Demolisher Cannons meaning that Vindicators are now useful.

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Crabowl
 Post subject: [Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:32 pm 
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(Chroma @ Dec. 12 2007,13:21)
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Some very interesting discussions Crabowl

First off, clumping together like that, anyone with barrage weapons is going to be hitting multiple Titans per attack... not for damage, but to place Blast markers. ?I'm not sure the exact distance between Titans, but they look pretty dang close together! ?A clump like that vs a Drop Pod army is going to see a great number of Titans on the verge of breaking if they're caught in the Deathwinds.

I'm not sure if drop pods can land on enemy ZoC but if they can then they cause a lot of blasts, otherwise maybe 2 different formations take a blast. 2 titans can be hit with a single barrage but then they only take one blast each.


(Chroma @ Dec. 12 2007,13:21)
QUOTE
Second, you do know that war engines block line of sight? ?With good positioning, the opponent can place units so that many of the supporting Titans will not be able to firefight through other Titans, weakening your hedgehog a bit and making your very vulnerable to a clipping intermingled assault on one of the perimeter Warhounds.

Uhuh. Thing is that for the enemy to do any considerable damage they have to put a lot of troops in BtB and that leads to the other titans seeing them. The distance from the edge of the middle reaver to the outer edge of other titans is 15cm so that there's always 4 titans in FF range, sometimes 5 if some huge assault mob surround the titan. The titans are not intermingled though just so that someone can't come and break more than one at a time.


(Chroma @ Dec. 12 2007,13:21)
QUOTE
Third, since you can only move two formations in a row, how do you intend to keep them all clumped together like that? ?Surely a Titan will be "exposed" at times.

If the enemy is hiding somewhere there's no reason to move faster than 20cm per round and that can be done by moving the last hounds to the front. Mostly it's dual warhound charges that nuke the target formation within 105cm and then wait for retaliation (they can stand quite a lot of punishment and they're not as good "defenders of the hog" as reavers are). Whereever the first one goes the others follow and if the enemy moves first within the range of the titan group (that isn't a clear trap) the entire group goes that way. There may be a couple of dead hounds but the damage the rest of the titans can do will destroy whatever it was that killed the hounds.


(Chroma @ Dec. 12 2007,13:21)
QUOTE
I would love to see a battle report vs Eldar or Orks with your "Titan Turtle" tactic.

See post 5 on page one vs orcs. The titan player used two "turtles" of 1 reaver and 2 warhounds. I pretty much got this idea after trying to figure how I could've won the titans (couldn't figure any good tactics for orcs other than lots of zzaps and fighta bommers).

E&C, the range of those MW toys is still 30cm right? How does that work when the other guy can reach 100 to 105 cm and vindicator can reach 90cm? If they would have MWFF then sure.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: [Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:06 pm 
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(Crabowl @ Dec. 12 2007,19:06)
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Yes it's possible to sit in the corner against these but it sort of makes the game somewhat uninteresting.

I sense it will be impossible to explain how to defeat your tactic without actually doing it against you!

Yes that tactic would be
boring - and as boring for the titan player too.

Course if you have artillery you can sit there and laugh, but leaving that aside the titan player is forcing that, and it is a tactic that will mean a minor win either way if the enemy lacks appropriate weapons to target the titans (like airpower, artillery, long range guns etc).

Yes I got the map wrong because I wouldn't deploy them like that. See the animation in my reply to Ilushia's post and that's the worst way the objectives can be deployed from a titan player's point of view. It doesn't matter where the remaining two are placed because a titan player can just ignore them.


In my experience objective placement wins and loses games.

There's potentially 32TLD, and 16 Plasma from reavers and 64VMB and 24 Plasmas from warhounds. All have a minimum range of 100cm and hit with either 3+ or 4+ when doubling. Those potential 40 MW3+ shots alone kill 27 units and the TLDs and VMBs kill a lot more. If I only need 251 points difference I'd say that's quite an overkill. Perhaps using those MWFF weapons for self defence purposes is crazy but for me they're doing their job splendidly.

You are way off on the ranges. This looks more like theory than game experience. If you want those ranges you have to double - double warhounds say forward and the enemy can jump them. Also all that plasma weaponry means that if you aren't assaulting you are pretty stuffed every other turn.

The single formation tactic makes it even harder to knock titans out and makes the low number of activations less of an issue.

As has been pointed out you block each others LOS and if you start to move to get those long ranges your group breaks up.

Yeah I probably would never want to play with them unless it would be in a campaign or some other setting.

How sad says the siegemasters champ :)

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Steve54
 Post subject: [Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:04 pm 
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I'd pretty much go along with TRC on this - I would be pretty pleased to be drawn against that list

A lot of the tactics/ideas seem very based upon 'theoryhammer'

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Crabowl
 Post subject: [Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:47 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 12 2007,16:06)
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In my experience objective placement wins and loses games.

Sure if you are playing for the objectives. No matter how you place your objectives the enemy can place them so that all VP's except BTS can be contested with 2 formations. Maybe it's a flaw in the tournament scenario I dunno but it just works that way.


(The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 12 2007,16:06)
QUOTE
You are way off on the ranges. This looks more like theory than game experience. If you want those ranges you have to double - double warhounds say forward and the enemy can jump them. Also all that plasma weaponry means that if you aren't assaulting you are pretty stuffed every other turn.

I suppose killing one formation with the banzai attack and then you jump on the hounds with two or possibly three formations to either kill them or break them isn't enough? Unless you're eldar you will be sitting exactly where you moved to and that means what? It means that you are within the range of the hounds and 9 times out of 10 they're within the range of you, "drums roll", when the other titans run to where the hounds were, "ta-da". I get to blast a bunch of nice formations that could possibly hurt me just because I sacrificed some hounds (unless of course your army only consists of AT weapons). The "real" threat range is about 90cm but the edges can reach 105cm if needed. I've played maybe 20 games where warhounds have been used to ?the get the initiative. Does that count or do I need some diploma in some epic university or something?


(The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 12 2007,16:06)
QUOTE
As has been pointed out you block each others LOS and if you start to move to get those long ranges your group breaks up.

It sure sucks that 2 infantry stands can hide out of LoS from the middle reaver. Maybe this will lead to assault marines getting couple extra MW attacks each so they can kill the hound at least.

And here's another 1000 words..

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: [Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:52 pm 
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I was actually refering to ranged fire (it messes up sustaining). I agree with you assault wise.

Anyway pointless debating it further, short of a turn by turn bat rep (which I have been looking for on the old titan forum but can't find) I won't be able to show you ways round it and what happens in a game.

Good luck with your system, I hope it turns out the best one!

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Crabowl
 Post subject: [Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:00 pm 
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(Steve54 @ Dec. 12 2007,17:04)
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I'd pretty much go along with TRC on this - I would be pretty pleased to be drawn against that list

A lot of the tactics/ideas seem very based upon 'theoryhammer'

OMG, TRC has a fan club. Can I have one too?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:02 pm 
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Fan clubs are overrated.

I'll start a cult with you if you like?

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: [Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:55 pm 
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Is this a good time to mention the subscription charge? I formation of Epic models a month, addressed to the UN WFP in Ethiopia? :)

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Crabowl
 Post subject: [Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:49 pm 
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I finally got to play another game with them silly titans and even though I got butchered by the eldar, I'm kinda pleased with the titan and weapon costs. I lost the game on turn three due to my reaver having a blast marker and failing to activate; there goes the blitz and two objectives on my side to the opponent. I'm not saying I even had a chance thanks to taking only 6 formations but at least I got to 'feel' the list a bit.

Titans:

Warlord (600)
?Power Fist (+75)
?Laser Burner (+75)
?Volcano Cannon (+125)
?Quake Cannon (+125)
?2 x Multi-Lasers (+50)
Cost: 1050

Reaver (450)
?Volcano Cannon (+125)
?Quake Cannon (+125)
?Laser Blaster (+100)
?2 x Multi-Lasers (+50)
Cost: 850

Warhound (200)
?Plasma Blastgun (+50)
?Turbo-Laser (+50)
Cost: 300

Warhound (200)
?Plasma Blastgun (+50)
?Vulcan Mega-Bolter (+50)
Cost: 300

Warhound (200)
?Plasma Blastgun (+50)
?Plasma Blastgun (+50)
Cost: 300

Shadowsword (200)

-----

Eldars:

Avatar
Wraithgate
Aspects (4 swoops + 4 shining spears + 2 exarch)
Aspects (4 swoops + 4 shining spears + 1 exarch & autarch)
Guardians (3 support)
Void Spinner
Void Spinner
Swords (5 falcons)
Swords (5 prisms + firestorm)
Swords (5 prisms + firestorm)
Vampire
Night Wings

-----

Titan casualties at the end of turn 3 were 2 warhounds and one shadowsword. Eldar casualties were one Aspect formation with 2 exarchs, 10 falcons/fire prisms in the 3 sword groups, some units in the other aspect formation and few guardians. Titans came down from 6 formation to 3 and eldar from 10 to 6 (all swords either broken or in bad shape). If there would've been the fourth turn, the eldar could've easilly killed the remaining hound and break or possibly even kill the reaver (it had 3 points of damage already).

-----

Anyway I've made ton of changes in the 1.4 version of the list to make the unwanted options more viable and make it possible to have more activations.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:55 pm 
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I think your points system seems to make all of your Titans about 10-20% too expensive.

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