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[Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
Ilushia
 Post subject: [Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:32 pm 
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The fact that Chroma's 6x MW 4+ plasma cannon was already commented on being too strong was missed, then?

Look, the fact is, Titans pay through the freaking NOSE for survivability. Compare a Reaver with a Leman Russ Detachment, same point cost, both have 4+ RA, the Russes get a free inspiring leader because they get Commissars. Even armed with 3 TLDs a Reaver still averages only 6 AT hits on average. Russ Formation against all-tanks averages 8.33 AT hits a turn on advance. Against infantry it's even worse, then they average 11.66 hits. And against a mixed formation they average 15 hits. So they have what, 1.5x the kill power of a reaver against tanks, and about 2x the kill power against infantry, and 2.5x the kill power against mixed targets? Cost the same, move the same, firefight as well, get a free inspiring leader, have longer main gun range? And the reaver gets... 4 void shields and Fearless. The only reason the reaver might be considered 'better' then the Leman Russ is that it doesn't deteorate while taking damage. So you have to hammer it until it's well and truly dead. I've seen this done, pretty handily, with teleporters, air assaults and TK weapons. Yes, they're freaking hard to kill, but they also cost an arm and a leg considering their kill power. Their primary advantage -is- survivability, and you pay for it too. And considering things like Deathstrikes, Cobras and Shadowsword Companies exit I can't see them as being that broken. Shadow Sword Co and 2 Deathstrikes will typically kill a Reaver quite dead in a single turn potentially. That's 600 points (500 of which is reusable) to kill 650 points.

Maybe I just suck totally with titans, but I have seen them die, quite consistently, when faced with something able to kill them. Space Marines have problems fighting them, that's true, but there's always one option no one ever seems to take: Bring your own titan to fight them. But no one seems to like that option, so I doubt it'll get taken any time soon.
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ragnarok
 Post subject: [Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:06 pm 
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I have taken a titan legion out a few times against a Ork horde (using AMTL V2.0 with the modular weapons cost) and have found them to be somewhat ineffective.

I had a couple of warlords a Reaver or two two loan warhounds and 2 leman russ cataphracts and I lost every game with them.

Not by objectives, but by my titans exploding and falling over.

I swear that every game I play I have at least two titans suffer a reactor melt down.

The worst being my plasmalord (two plasma destructor, two plasma cannons,legate, CML over 1000pts of war god) explode at the end of turn two after having a grot stuck in its exhurst pipe.  the worst part was that it hadn't even fired its guns yet.  It was getting ready for an alpha strike on the great gargant when a loada boyz swarmed it and nicked the coffee machine and microwave, breaking it.

Maybe it is me, but I find that the imperial critical isn't very forgiving, unlike the orks  one, or to a lesser extend the eldar one.  This reduces the titan effectiveness, since the worry that they can explode holds me back from over extending them.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: [Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:25 pm 
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I can't say I've ever had a titan blow up (Though I did have plenty of chances one game when my Emperator took like eight crits in one turn... And all of them came up with 'no effect'!) usually by the time my titans are damaged enough to really run the risk of getting crits they die before the end of the turn anyway because my opponent keeps hammering them until they're dead-dead not just broken-dead.
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: [Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:57 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Dec. 11 2007,02:25)
QUOTE
I can't say I've ever had a titan blow up.

I had a run of 1 titan melt down per game for about a dozen games a year back. Sodding things.


(Crabowl @ Dec. 10 2007,22:10)
QUOTE
Yeah, overpowered as hell. All of these AMTL lists are like that, you can get a lot of insane toys that can make holes to the world. Titans 'work' on regular lists because you can't make the entire list out of them but these are all way too good.

Can't in mine - I dare you do it :)

We've played endless games with 4 titans plus. Best they ever got was a draw or narrow win. Just not enough activations.

The reason why those plasmas are like that is that someone made the warhound plasma so good and it would be somewhat stupid that bigger and better guns would be worse.


TLD's are better than blastguns - thats just talking kill wise of course.

Same goes for macrobarrages that are just horrible vs anyone who has anything other than titans.. wait that's all the other lists.

Yeah, but I reckon those MW barrages are going to be a thing of the past and it will be disrupt barrages next :)

tuned some of them down like chainfist from +6MW to +4MW. It probably should be +1MW or +2MW at best.

+5 attacks is fine, you will, unless you are supremely lucky/good get to use it only once. Thats +5 MW3+ CC and 6 3+ CC/FF attacks on your reaver vs say 12 gatling shots. Only worth it if that is a game critical assault, otherwise rarely bother with assault weapons.

Volcano cannon could use MW(D3) that would cause D3 different MW hits on a single target instead of TK(D3) and someone should toss the entire TK thingy in the dumpster.

TK is better than MW. Tk at least is fair, MW screws armies like marines far more badly.


(Crabowl @ Dec. 11 2007,01:11)
QUOTE
Assuming you have the shadowsword companies placed straight in line with the warlord and they don't have to double (I'm assuming you're going to shoot from d-zone to d-zone). This seems like a school book example of balanced; with IG bring 7 shadowswords and a loaded die, check.

Just to argue the point the guard can do it with two deathstrikes and whatever to strip shields. Will nuke a Reaver 13 out of 18 times, and the rest of the time anger it off/break it.

Personally i take  company of shadowswords and a pair of deathstrikes every time just in case I meet a WE heavy army.

So umm there's gold bars lying around or why is it important to hold the rest of the table? And how did you drop the shields in the first place? Most regular formations have 45cm range and I seem to recall that you can shoot when marshalling. The titans can do the moving part on the third round when there's nothing else left to do.

Not far enough they can't.
Typical anti titan deployment would be blitz in centre, on objective on the left table edge half way in, one on the right half way in.

If any titans peel off on their own, kil 'em.

Now to win the Titan player has to get 2 victory goals. How do you propose you do that whilst not moving?

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:22 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Dec. 10 2007,19:32)
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The fact that Chroma's 6x MW 4+ plasma cannon was already commented on being too strong was missed, then?

Yeah, I'll be reducing them to 4x in the next version.

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Crabowl
 Post subject: [Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:44 am 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 10 2007,20:57)
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(Crabowl @ Dec. 10 2007,22:10)
QUOTE
Yeah, overpowered as hell. All of these AMTL lists are like that, you can get a lot of insane toys that can make holes to the world. Titans 'work' on regular lists because you can't make the entire list out of them but these are all way too good.

Can't in mine - I dare you do it :)

We've played endless games with 4 titans plus. Best they ever got was a draw or narrow win. Just not enough activations.

Reaver ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?725
?Plasma Cannon, T-L D, Firefight Weapon,
?Multilasers, Veteran Princeps

Reaver ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?700
?Plasma Cannon, T-L D, Firefight Weapon,
?Multilasers

Warhound Pack ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 500
?Plasma Blastgun, Vulcan Megabolter

Warhound Pack ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 500
?Plasma Blastgun, Vulcan Megabolter

Warhound ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?275
?Plasma Blastgun, Plasma Blastgun

Thunderbolts ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?150

Thunderbolts ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?150

Tactics goes as follows: place blitz in the middle and well that's it. Opponent places his objectives somewhere and then there's 3 turns of time to walk 45cm to reach his side of the table. Thunderbolts are there to eat activations and do a random blast occasionally. Reavers are walking next to a pack of hounds. If the opponent doesn't have a lot of air assault units/teleports it's possible to leave only one reaver near the blitz and the rest can move forward and pillage anything. Try to play against that with any regular army or any army that is designed to work against other armies (like in current tournaments). Everything moves fast enough to get back to blitz and on one of the objectives on the titan player's side and nobody wins with objectives unless the enemy kills some titans. There's 5 formations that can cripple or destroy any ~300 pt regular formation and even with bad luck it's still 3 dead formations when they concentrate fire. There are armies that simply can't do anything to those (unless you get those 3 terminator units with 3 characters and a thunderbolt to kill one of the reavers). If the goal is to turn every other army into WH40k Lascannon-Plasma min-max then this certainly is the way (I stopped playing that crap so long ago that it probably has supermegatanks now and you just throw couple hundred dice and see who wins).


(The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 10 2007,20:57)
QUOTE

(Crabowl @ Dec. 10 2007,22:10)
QUOTE
So umm there's gold bars lying around or why is it important to hold the rest of the table? And how did you drop the shields in the first place? Most regular formations have 45cm range and I seem to recall that you can shoot when marshalling. The titans can do the moving part on the third round when there's nothing else left to do.


Not far enough they can't.
Typical anti titan deployment would be blitz in centre, on objective on the left table edge half way in, one on the right half way in.

If any titans peel off on their own, kil 'em.

Now to win the Titan player has to get 2 victory goals. How do you propose you do that whilst not moving?

Maybe some tournaments use victory points in addition and was it 251 points difference that gives you something already. Even if it's only a '13-7' victory you'll end up pretty close to the final table and it's relatively easy to wipe out fluff players with those to get even more points. Sure it's possible that someone comes with the terminator horde but it's highly unlikely unless that's the way you want to design the game..

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Crabowl
 Post subject: [Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:03 pm 
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I did a lot of changes on the 1.3 version of the army list. Emperor found his missing Tech-Guards and now brings 6 stands of them to battle. Emperor also got some cheaper weapons and it now costs 1600 to see it on the table. Reaver ended up costing 50 points more and that will hopefully make them breed less. A lot of weapons got tuned down making them resemble pea guns in the world of megacannons but if that allows other armies to beat these then I'm ok with it. Full list of changes below:

Plasma Annihilator: price dropped from 300 to 200
Hellstorm Cannon: 6 x AP2+/AT3+ changed to 6 x AP2+/AT4+ and price dropped from 300 to 200 points
Vengeance Cannon: 6 x AP3+/AT2+ changed to 6 x AP4+/AT2+ and price dropped from 300 to 200 points
Doomstrike Launcher: price dropped from 250 to 200

Note: I haven't played with the Emperor titan yet and I have no clue how it will perform in a battle. Everything about it can be changed and/or it can be tossed out entirely.

Plasma Destructor: 3 x MW2+ changed to 2 x MW2+
Gatling Blaster: 4 x AP3+/AT4+ changed to 4 x AP3+/AT5+
Laser Blaster (T-L D): 4 x AP4+/AT3+ changed to 4 x AP5+/AT3+
Volcano Cannon: price raised from 100 to 125 points
Melta Cannon: lost Small Arms TK(1) and price dropped from 100 to 75 points
Quake Cannon: MW2BP/90cm changed to 3BP/90cm/Disrupt
Vortex Missile: MW2BP changed to MW3BP
Chainfist: MW Extra Attacks reduced from 4 to 2
Power Fist: TK(D3) Extra Attacks reduced from 2 to 1 and price dropped from 100 to 75
Wrecker Ball: TK(D3) Extra Attacks changed to 2 x MW
Laser Burner: Extra Attacks reduced from 3 to 2

Most of those downgrades may seem harsh, especially the CC/FF weapons, but if we want to see space marines or any other formation assault a titan and run home to tell to the kids about it, there can't be weapons that give +5TK extra attacks from the left hand and +3TK(3D6) attacks from the right hand.

And here's the list:

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: [Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:46 pm 
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(Crabowl @ Dec. 11 2007,14:44)
QUOTE
Reaver                          725
 Plasma Cannon, T-L D, Firefight Weapon,
 Multilasers, Veteran Princeps

Reaver                          700
 Plasma Cannon, T-L D, Firefight Weapon,
 Multilasers

Warhound Pack                   500
 Plasma Blastgun, Vulcan Megabolter

Warhound Pack                   500
 Plasma Blastgun, Vulcan Megabolter

Warhound                        275
 Plasma Blastgun, Plasma Blastgun

Thunderbolts                    150

Thunderbolts                    150

Tactics goes as follows (snipped lots by TRC): place blitz in the middle and well that's it. Opponent places his objectives somewhere and then there's 3 turns of time to walk 45cm to reach his side of the table. Try to play against that with any regular army or any army that is designed to work against other armies (like in current tournaments). Everything moves fast enough to get back to blitz and on one of the objectives on the titan player's side and nobody wins with objectives unless the enemy kills some titans.

I would cheerfully play that list with my immobile siegemasters, never mind regular guard. Your weapon fit isn't particularly hot. Good for a 2nd turn assault - but that means you have to get within 35cm of me on the first turn and with both dedicated to it it is somewhat obvious. With a 40cm move when doubling unless I am being aggressive you aren't going to be able to shoot and assault, prob have to march instead.

With only 7 activations - 2 of them 'skirmish' thunderbolts that can't come near flak - I will simply let you run out of things to do before committing.

If you get your supported assault that means you have got half your army in one small area, and with me controlling the activations it will not be an area I will reside in for long.

I've drawn a little picture of the best set up you could get placing your blitz in the centre.

Now you could place mine near yours in which case you have a choice - be no where near my blitz or split up.

Sure you will mash a flank but I will have your blitz and you will have nowt.

And your units aren't that tough. Target one is the warhound, target two either a warhound pack or your bts.

The deployment aims to make you split up at some point and thats when i get to kill a titan or two.

Maybe some tournaments use victory points in addition and was it 251 points difference that gives you something already. Even if it's only a '13-7' victory you'll end up pretty close to the final table and it's relatively easy to wipe out fluff players with those to get even more points. Sure it's possible that someone comes with the terminator horde but it's highly unlikely unless that's the way you want to design the game..


I wouldn't need that, I'd be going for your blitz and another objective. You leave a reaver behind and irrespective of whether I can kill it or not you only have 4 activations attacking.

Sure your warhounds can get back to cover the blitz but again you are losing activations from your attack.

Really I played against these sorts of armies before and you just lack the activations and speed to do it. Move 20 ain't that hot and the warhounds need more WE numbers to swamp the opponent if they are being concentrated on.

Note the army would be marginally better with 2 formations of hydra.

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ragnarok
 Post subject: [Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:11 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 10 2007,20:57)
QUOTE

(Ilushia @ Dec. 11 2007,02:25)
QUOTE
I can't say I've ever had a titan blow up.

I had a run of 1 titan melt down per game for about a dozen games a year back. Sodding things.

I've had a warlord and a Reaver go in the same turn.

though my worst luck as when my Hydraphant failed13 out of 15 4+RA saves.

I suck at rolling dice.  :(

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Ilushia
 Post subject: [Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:44 pm 
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Crab, from what I've heard from you you mostly run Space Marines, and as has been stated before space marines have real problems fighting Titans. There's really two reasons for this: One, you can't clip a titan, period. You assault it, it gets to shoot back with everything. Two: They're fearless, so assaults can't wipe them out. Marines rely very heavily on being able to kill stuff with assaults, and titans happen to be monsters in assaults. In much the same way that Titans have real problems when faced with an Ork army which has tons of Supa-Zzap Gunz, it's just not a good matchup at all. As to how to get around it? That one I can't help you a whole lot with except by theoryhammer, since I've fought space marines precisely twice (once with an emperator, which hardly counts as that thing is simultaneously absurdly killy and absurdly over-priced for E:A), and have never fought against titans as SM (Though now that I have some SM to field I'm kinda hoping to get a chance at that at some point).

Though, in a theory standpoint, a quartet of Scout formations could potentially really ruin the titan's day if they like to stay bunched up too close. Move in your scouts on a march move, stand the scouts around the feet of the titans 10cm from base to base and about 15cm infront of the titans. The titans then have to either shoot the scouts to death or go around them (And with 60cm of coverage that's a long way around!) to go anywhere. Especially nasty using Land Speeders as they can march so far. And if they use them to shoot or assault the scouts? Sure you'll lose your 150 point scouts or 200 point land speeders, but they're tying up 500-650 points or so for the right to kill them. With four formations of scouts you can potentially really ruin their day as you can prevent them from moving on turn 1 or 2 basically at all by spreading the scouts out (Two rings, each one spread out with 20cm between each base, and about 15cm behind one another near their feet. They have to kill both units, basically, to move anywhere meaningful. Set 'em up 12-15cm infront of the titan or so).

Can't guarantee it'd work, but with no screening formations and so few activations any time you can force him to spend an activation to shoot at something which is that small and cheap you're winning out essentially. And sooner or later he HAS to kill them, because if he tries to move around them they can move their lines to block him again next turn potentially.
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Crabowl
 Post subject: [Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:10 am 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 11 2007,18:46)
QUOTE

(Crabowl @ Dec. 11 2007,14:44)
QUOTE
Reaver ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?725
?Plasma Cannon, T-L D, Firefight Weapon,
?Multilasers, Veteran Princeps

Reaver ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?700
?Plasma Cannon, T-L D, Firefight Weapon,
?Multilasers

Warhound Pack ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 500
?Plasma Blastgun, Vulcan Megabolter

Warhound Pack ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 500
?Plasma Blastgun, Vulcan Megabolter

Warhound ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?275
?Plasma Blastgun, Plasma Blastgun

Thunderbolts ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?150

Thunderbolts ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?150

Tactics goes as follows (snipped lots by TRC): place blitz in the middle and well that's it. Opponent places his objectives somewhere and then there's 3 turns of time to walk 45cm to reach his side of the table. Try to play against that with any regular army or any army that is designed to work against other armies (like in current tournaments). Everything moves fast enough to get back to blitz and on one of the objectives on the titan player's side and nobody wins with objectives unless the enemy kills some titans.

I would cheerfully play that list with my immobile siegemasters, never mind regular guard. Your weapon fit isn't particularly hot. Good for a 2nd turn assault - but that means you have to get within 35cm of me on the first turn and with both dedicated to it it is somewhat obvious. With a 40cm move when doubling unless I am being aggressive you aren't going to be able to shoot and assault, prob have to march instead.

With only 7 activations - 2 of them 'skirmish' thunderbolts that can't come near flak - I will simply let you run out of things to do before committing.

If you get your supported assault that means you have got half your army in one small area, and with me controlling the activations it will not be an area I will reside in for long.

I've drawn a little picture of the best set up you could get placing your blitz in the centre.

Now you could place mine near yours in which case you have a choice - be no where near my blitz or split up.

Sure you will mash a flank but I will have your blitz and you will have nowt.

And your units aren't that tough. Target one is the warhound, target two either a warhound pack or your bts.

The deployment aims to make you split up at some point and thats when i get to kill a titan or two.

Maybe some tournaments use victory points in addition and was it 251 points difference that gives you something already. Even if it's only a '13-7' victory you'll end up pretty close to the final table and it's relatively easy to wipe out fluff players with those to get even more points. Sure it's possible that someone comes with the terminator horde but it's highly unlikely unless that's the way you want to design the game..


I wouldn't need that, I'd be going for your blitz and another objective. You leave a reaver behind and irrespective of whether I can kill it or not you only have 4 activations attacking.

Sure your warhounds can get back to cover the blitz but again you are losing activations from your attack.

Really I played against these sorts of armies before and you just lack the activations and speed to do it. Move 20 ain't that hot and the warhounds need more WE numbers to swamp the opponent if they are being concentrated on.

Note the army would be marginally better with 2 formations of hydra.

Umm I think you've missed the idea completely. I'm not taking those FF toys for assaults, they're for self defence against suicide terminators and landas and the likes. The entire mob just hangs around and moves ~20 in the direction they want to go on each round and blast whatever is in sight. There is no need to leave anyone behind since all of them can reach any of the points of interest at any time they want. If you feed them scouts they go 'yay, easy points'. It doesn't matter if the titans can't do more than 150-200 points per round when you can't do more than that (maybe you can with 7 shadowswords but I bet most IG players don't use those regularly). There is no need to fight about objectives as long as you kill more than the other and thanks to void shields and a zillion supporting FF/MWFF attacks the titans eat non-TKs for breakfast.

Sure you might want to play against those with your siege/IG army when you know what's coming at you and you can take enough TKs to kill them. The point isn't that, some armies simply can't do anything to those and you call that balanced because your IG can? Make some other list and balance it to fight in a tournament where you're sure to fight against orcs, eldar, marines, chaos and then try that list against TL. This isn't rock, paper, scissors, and even if one list can beat the other, it doesn't mean they all can or that the list is in any way balanced. Marines are probably the worst against these so the list should be balanced so that even they have a chance of beating them. Give the titans 20MW/TK close combat attacks and that removes the last chance of marines to kill them. They're just as bad as orcs boyz against MW except that there's twice as many orcs. Are you really serious that you want this game to work so that some armies simply have to go hide in the corner if they are unfortunate enough to ever fight against TL?

Here's a picture where the formation will be spending most of its time. The circles are the distance the formation can advance or double and shoot if someone comes out of the corner. If you are not packing some serious heat you better be sitting in the corner and wait for the game to end. I suppose that's the epic feeling everyone is looking from this game.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: [Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:39 am 
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I think you've got the map backwards, actually. The idea is to set up the two objectives on the titan half of the board at opposite ends of the board, forcing the titans to either split up to defend them or allow you to claim them both. While the titan player will want to put his centrally to try and take both of them with a single titan.

As an example of the kind of IG force I'd expect to see (or field) at a tournament would be something like this:

Steel Legion
3,000 Points

Tank Co. - BTS
+Hydra
Cost: 700

Reg. HQ
Cost: 500

Super Heavy Tank Co.
+3 Shadowswords
Cost: 500

Deathstrike Missiles
Cost: 200

Storm Troopers
+Valks
Cost: 350

Storm Troopers
+Valks
Cost: 350

Sentinels
Cost: 100

Hydras
Cost: 150

Hydras
Cost: 150


Hydras for AA and cheap activations, Sentinels give me some cheap scouts, the rest is mostly effective, deathstrikes are so low-cost there's almost no reason not to take them against just about anyone. Shadowswords can kill three of anything they feel like more or less every turn. Storm Troopers in Valks can shoot or assault pretty reasonably against infantry and tanks, Tank Co is fairly solid and has nice long range, and the Reg. HQ is there because IG want a supreme commander whenever possible. Against a titan centered list my first two actions would almost certainly be to have the shadowswords or tank company strip your BTS titan of its shields, then retain with the deathstrikes to kill it.

Unfortunately space marines don't have a lot of good answers to titans (Even in OTHER lists they tend to get eaten alive by them. Especially Eldar titans with MW shots), and MW attacks only compounds this as their armor is no longer so useful. Ork Great Gargant with soopa gunz is another good example, 8 BP (That's 3 blast templates and an extra blast marker) of MW shots at 90cm range on a double. Which will muck up space marines something fierce and be their fearless 12 DC break their spirit. Cheaper then a Warlord, too.

I would say the issues seen actually more compounds a problem with the Space Marines then it does the AMTL, since as far as I've seen they're the only list which seriously suffers from a lack of solutions to fighting titans. (Being the only army which doesn't have its own ground-based WEs probably only compounds this, to be honest).
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: [Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:21 am 
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(Crabowl @ Dec. 12 2007,05:10)
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Umm I think you've missed the idea completely. I'm not taking those FF toys for assaults, they're for self defence against suicide terminators and landas and the likes. The entire mob just hangs around and moves ~20 in the direction they want to go on each round and blast whatever is in sight. There is no need to leave anyone behind since all of them can reach any of the points of interest at any time they want. If you feed them scouts they go 'yay, easy points'. It doesn't matter if the titans can't do more than 150-200 points per round when you can't do more than that (maybe you can with 7 shadowswords but I bet most IG players don't use those regularly). There is no need to fight about objectives as long as you kill more than the other and thanks to void shields and a zillion supporting FF/MWFF attacks the titans eat non-TKs for breakfast.

Sure you might want to play against those with your siege/IG army when you know what's coming at you and you can take enough TKs to kill them. The point isn't that, some armies simply can't do anything to those and you call that balanced because your IG can? Make some other list and balance it to fight in a tournament where you're sure to fight against orcs, eldar, marines, chaos and then try that list against TL. This isn't rock, paper, scissors, and even if one list can beat the other, it doesn't mean they all can or that the list is in any way balanced. Marines are probably the worst against these so the list should be balanced so that even they have a chance of beating them. Give the titans 20MW/TK close combat attacks and that removes the last chance of marines to kill them. They're just as bad as orcs boyz against MW except that there's twice as many orcs. Are you really serious that you want this game to work so that some armies simply have to go hide in the corner if they are unfortunate enough to ever fight against TL?

Umm, Siegers are one of the worse armies to take verses Titans, especially assault titans, because they are immobile. You know exactly where they will be. And you can't 'build' your list to fit titans without losing to everyone else. In the past I have never managed to kill a battle titan, the best I have done is break it (at which point they charge).

But lets get this straight - you are complaining that you can't beat Titans in a shooting match?

Kinda the idea. Bit like throwing all your armour at a weak point - overwealm, break through, flank/encircle.

Titans are not as manoverable as you think. I beat them with marines by using that speed (from transports, thunderhawks and teleports) to fight when I want to.

If you are going to spend all that time in your half with 60cm range weapons you are not going to hit anything unless the enemy is foolish enough to come and present a target.

And the map is the other way - in Epic you place your opponents objectives. So you have a problem - how to secure your own objectives and get the enemies. By the simple measure of putting troops in front and out of LOS I can ensure you have to fight me for a turn, so no last turn grabs. If you refuse to leg it forward I would be looking at 2-1 hopefully to me, more if I have killed the BTS.

And of course an assault titan fit is stuffed by corner to corner deployment.

Using those weapons for non assault purposes is crazy. You are going to get 32 TLD shots and 16 plasma shots from both Reaver titans over the whole game. You want to play slow, I would watch you do it and get ready to kill stuff when you make your 'break' on turn three, with hopefully stuff to contest your attempts and stop you even getting 1 VP. Plasma  - especially on warhounds - is a going forward weapon ideally to make use of the turn you are doing nothing. Otherwise regular weapons are simply better.

In essence Titan armies have the firepower and resilance, their enemies have the activations (massively important), speed and toys (air assaults, teleports, cheap TK etc etc).

I don't suppose you are in the UK over Christmas? I could then demonstrate how to stuff titans.

Really the problem we encountered was Titans never being able to win (but then again we didn't have discounted Titans).

Incidentally I take it you don't like playing Siegemasters where you have in essence one strategy? :)

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: [Army List] Crab's Titan Legions
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:58 am 
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Hmmm? Now Warlord with 2 turbolaser, gatling blaster and volcano cost 1025 points, Reaver with 2 Turbolaser and Missiles costs 725 and Warhound with Blasmaplastgun and Vulcan Mega Bolter 300.

But what Teh Real Chris has told you should point to you that Titans are Supreme Killers if enemy is stupid enought to fight them head on. But when enemy knows how not to fight them they are very hard army to play with. And because you desided to up their point sky high they are even harder to play with. I had major victories with my Gargants in the past when people did not know how to fight them (they even blamed me of cheese :(), but nowdays I lost with them too. Gargants are like Titans, only slower, they will shoot anything apart but have few activations and smart opponent can allmost allways force at least draw with smart movement and placing of objectives.

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