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Space Marine ideas

Soren

Post subject: Space Marine ideas

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 8:57 pm

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Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:42 am
Posts: 694
Location: Austria

asking the same question as Chroma. our terrain is quite dense and plenty of opportunities to hide formations behind ruins or hills.

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Crabowl

Post subject: Space Marine ideas

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:34 pm

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Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:44 pm
Posts: 123
Location: Finland

(Chroma @ Dec. 01 2007,14:09)

QUOTE

How much terrain do you guys typically use?

We use 10 1'x1' terrain pieces on a 6'x4' table and their places are randomized. Sometimes they spread evenly and sometimes they clump up but at least it's fair for both (there's also no roll for sides due to this - it's easier to move the terrain than our fat asses

).

The exact structure of the terrain is 5x5 1st ed. space marine houses and 5 patches of forest. Randomizing is done by splitting the table into 12 rectangles (4x3/18"x16") and rolling D12, 2D6 and a scatter dice. D12 determines where the scenery piece is centered and it's then moved 2D6" in the direction of the scatter dice. If the terrain hits the edge of the table or another piece of terrain it stops and is placed there.

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Ginger

Post subject: Space Marine ideas

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:07 am

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Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK

Very interesting terrain setting mechanism, which would seem likely to leave large parts of the centre of the table uncovered - and hence would favour shooting armies. (This supposition is purely based on probability - there is a 2/3 probability that the terrain will be on one side or the other, and when placed, there is more than a 50% chance that it will be placed ?on the table edge). I suspect that you would get a much more even game if you took the same approach, but applied it to a central area eg 4' x 3' leaving a perimeter of around 6" - 1' around the edges of the table. Doing this would provide more cover for troops to hide behind and IMHO would provide a more interesting game.

Only one of those work against '82-97' and that's the 120cm disrupt barrage. Depending on the eldar formation(s) the marine player only moves up to 82 or 97cm away and uses 6 or 7 activations to eat the eldar activations. One hound may have been activated at this point if there's been a sweet enough target within 105cm (falcons, night spinners, engines, anything that would be hard to kill with infantry rockets). The remaining eldar activations most likely break that hound and two more steps in. Usually there's 2 broken eldar formations and 1 hound at this point. If marines win the strategy roll on turn 2, the hounds are positioned as far away as possible from the eldar formations that could do any damage to them while they cause some blast markers with bolters. If eldars win the roll they usually break one of the hounds. Depending on the strategy roll the eldars are 1-3 formations short and marines win the second round activation game as well. There may be some other marine formations closer than the 82cm line (like devs and hunter) but they've only moved in to cause that missing blast if the hounds couldn't do it (and blast markers on bombers). There's practically never any assaults before turn 3 and only if they're 'won' before rolling any dice (BMs, outnumber and FF clipping).

Hmm - while I can see what you are suggesting, I am very surprised that there are few assaults before turn 3 - and this is probably the point I was trying to make. The army I tend to prefer goes something like this and is geared up to permit more assaults in turn 1 or 2 :-

Guardians + WG + WL ? ? ? ? ? ? ?475 ?(off table) (BTS)
Shining spears + Exarch ? ? ? ? ? ?325 ?(off table)
Warp Spiders + Exarch ? ? ? ? ? ? ?325 ?(off table)
Guardians + WG (to camp) ? ? ? ?300 ?
Storm Serpent ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??250
Storm Serpent ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??250
Falcons (2x Firestorm) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 250
Falcons (2x Firestorm) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 250
Rangers ?(x5) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?125
Jet Bikes (1x Viper) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? 200
Night Spinner ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?175
Gate ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?50

Fewer activations, but tougher formations. The rangers are deployed as a garrison for the gate in any nearby cover, and are more a nuisance force. The rest is fairly obvious - The main key here is to "defeat the enemy's strategy" which in this case seems to be to advance very cautiously and wear down the Eldar activations.

However, I suspect that the Eldar player is missing some important parts of the rules, like
- Shining Spears assault in b-b contact with titans, where they ignore the shields, and also have lance to get past the Reinforced armour! They then consolidate 35 cms to support the next assault.
- Warp Spiders Infiltrate means they have an effective assault range of 50 cms. out of a Storm Serpent move (75cms) means they can assault anything within around 120cms of the initial SS position, so can switch the attack from one wing to the other, but are best placed centrally. First Strike, and the Exarch, should mean they break most formations of equal size provided they clip just 2-3 enemy with 4-6 WS.
- The large Guardians can be used to dominate the centre for the next turn - with good firepower and reinforced armour, they are hard to shift. (remember to put all guardians in B-B with WL to gain cover from shooting as the WL are AV!), and place the WL and WG around the outside of the formation to provide a shield against shooting and assaults. They can also bring on the Avatar to support assaults or even make combined assaults.
- Possibly consider keeping 1 or possibly even 2 formations off table for use in turn 2 as a deterrent, keeping the smurfs at arms length.

The main desire of the Eldar is to keep away from the enemy as long as possible, and then to move to places the remaining enemy formations cannot attack, preparing to concentrate against a small part of the smufs - and to ensure that assaults will destroy smurf formations (and hence activations). But it sounds as though you both play very cautious / conservative games, while I am somewhat more reckless and "in your face" - so these thoughts are probably invalid anyway. *laugh* ;-)

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Crabowl

Post subject: Space Marine ideas

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:23 pm

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Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:44 pm
Posts: 123
Location: Finland

Let the theorycrafting begin..

dev smurfs+razor+hunter 350
tac smurfs+razor+hunter+sup 500 (BTS that camps at home)
tac smurfs+razor+hunter 400
whirlwinds 300
warhound 250
warhound 250
warhound 250
thunderbolts 150
land speeders 200
scouts+razor 175
scouts+razor 175

vs

Guardians + WG + WL ? ? ? ? ? ? ?475 ?(off table) (BTS)
Shining spears + Exarch ? ? ? ? ? ?325 ?(off table)
Warp Spiders + Exarch ? ? ? ? ? ? ?325 ?(off table)
Guardians + WG (to camp) ? ? ? ?300 ?
Storm Serpent ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??250
Storm Serpent ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??250
Falcons (2x Firestorm) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 250
Falcons (2x Firestorm) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 250
Rangers ?(x5) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?125
Jet Bikes (1x Viper) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? 200
Night Spinner ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?175
Gate ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?50

I'd put my blitz somewhere in the middle of my table edge. If you'd put your blitz in the middle I'd put my other objectives in the corners, and if you'd put your blitz to either side I'd put my objectives as far away as possible on the other side.

I'd put one of my scouts in garrison just in front of the blitz and spread them to cover as much space as possible (overwatch). Since there's no 120cm disrupt, I could just deploy the rest of my force in tight formations behind the scouts (not intermingling though). This would pretty much cover any first turn suicide attackers from warps and spears.

Depending on the objectives (1-1-1 or 1-2), I'd go either for the blitz or for the other side of the warp gate or if you'd split your army I'd go for the weaker half. Most likely order of my actions would be overwatch for the scouts who already are in overwatch, other scouts move, tac (BTS) moves, other tacs move, whirlwinds shoot something (if within range) or move, speeders move, warhound suicides (most likely against falcons), followed by another one, and third, if there's something almost broken, devs go and deliver one blast with hunter, and finally thunderbolts go and finish one group of falcons from a direction where their AA is suppressed. If those storm serpents would come any closer, everyone and their uncle would go for them. If you'd hold back the storm serpents until the very end, the last formations I'd move would be the hounds.

If I'd win the first turn strategy roll and make you go first, I could pull it off with minimal casualties. At the start of turn two we'd either have done absolutely nothing or there'd be 2 crippled eldar formations. On turn two it would possible for you to kill (most likely break) one of the hounds assuming you win the strategy roll, otherwise I'd move them away and the cost of killing (or breaking) them is to get counter attacked.

Marines are pretty much safe against anything the eldars can throw at them on the first turn with the list above. It's not too smart to spend 575 points to attempt a suicide assault especially when the scouts would give a blast marker on the formation and the marines are packed tightly. There's no point to bring out the reserves since they can't do anything and that leads to marines having activation superiority. Night spinners can cause blast markers on the scouts or they can double and shoot one of the bigger formations and die in the process. Falcons can double and get killed but none of the options are really worth the cost. But as always with theorycrafting this is just it, there's no way to know how someone else plays and how the dice rolls and the situation might be 3 dead hounds at the start of turn 2 and game over for marines.

May I ask where the Autarch is? With my luck I couldn't even move out of my own deployment zone if I were playing without one..

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Ginger

Post subject: Space Marine ideas

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:29 pm

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Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK

As others will testify, my dice rolling tends to be extreme - all 1's and 2's or all 5's and 6's, and that despite (or perhaps because) of the inordinate number of dice available ?

Consequently, I tend not to use a supreme commander because I can never decide when to use the reroll, and this allows another 2 exarchs elsewhere (which I tend to find more usefull in assaults).

Much depends upon the terrain which is probably the key factor in deciding any battle (and has been so since Sun Tzu was metaphorically a lad). Hence the interest in your terrain and it's density in the centre of the table. Could you describe further how the terrain is used or affects your games? For example, you seem to have no hills to hide behind, and also lack 2 pieces from the 12 recommended for your size table. Also, IIRC the individual cardboard buildings are a bit small for individual terrain pieces (which should each be around 6" x 1' or 15cm x 30cm and larger for the hills!) so if you are using 1'x1' pieces, perhaps you are using more than one building per terrain "piece"?. The terrain layout is key to the strategies adopted and to the placing of the objectives, because the eldar do benefit greatly from hiding in / behind terrain to prevent retaliation (using pop-up fire etc for nuisance attacks and positioning).

However, assuming that you fight (have fought) mostly on a relatively open battlefield, the defensive / delaying strategy you describe here is one of the best, and very hard to counter. There are essentially two counters:- either to stay put in the deployment zone until something tempting comes into range (a warhound probably); or if the Smurfs use most / all the activations on one side of the battlefield, to consider deploying forwards into that side of the table with at least 3-4 formations.

As I said earlier, in my experience the Eldar tend to work best in counter-attacking mode until sufficient formations are close enough to mount overwhelming assaults. Consequently they must attempt to stay out of range / sight (hence the interest in the terrain) to preserve their formations for as long as possible, using fire-&-retire activations to keep the main Smurf forces at bay. The point here is that to shoot something, the warhounds must move to within 45cms which then leaves them open to some form of retaliation. The wraithgates are the key here, and the Storm Serpents are placed relatively centrally irrespective of the objectives for greatest flexibility. The last formations to move are those off table which either assault or Marshall, and the intention is to catch and kill one or two of the warhounds with these formations at the end of turn #1 or the start of turn #2. However, as you note, the greatest imponderable is the dice rolling, and while one may play to the strengths of your army, luck tends to be on the side of the big battalions.

In my view, the above approach will result in a gradual escalation as forces are drawn into attacking / defending areas of the battlefield, and the end result will be down to retaining mobility and postion in turn #3, with most battles going to 2 point victories in turn three, and a fair number going to turn 4, where the game will usually be won by the player who has the most remaining viable ground formations.

Ultimately, it comes down to Smurf resilience Vs Eldar manoeuverability / cunning, and here I suspect that things are much more finely balanced than your original notes tend to suggest - but hey, we will never be able to prove that without actually meeting - which is highly unlikely as you seem to be in Finland, while I am in the UK.

(Comments on terrain edited after re-reading earlier entries in the thread)

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Crabowl

Post subject: Space Marine ideas

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:32 am

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Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:44 pm
Posts: 123
Location: Finland

(Ginger @ Dec. 06 2007,11:29)

QUOTE

Much depends upon the terrain which is probably the key factor in deciding any battle (and has been so since Sun Tzu was metaphorically a lad). Hence the interest in your terrain and it's density in the centre of the table. Could you describe further how the terrain is used or affects your games? For example, you seem to have no hills to hide behind, and also lack 2 pieces from the 12 recommended for your size table. Also, IIRC the individual cardboard buildings are a bit small for individual terrain pieces (which should each be around 6" x 1' or 15cm x 30cm and larger for the hills!) so if you are using 1'x1' pieces, perhaps you are using more than one building per terrain "piece"?. The terrain layout is key to the strategies adopted and to the placing of the objectives, because the eldar do benefit greatly from hiding in / behind terrain to prevent retaliation (using pop-up fire etc for nuisance attacks and positioning).

This is pretty much what the terrain usually looks like. There's no hills but the forests are thick enough to cover LoS quite efficiently. Since we don't move our asses I'd be deploying my troops from the bottom and you'd be deploying from the top. The grid is 18"x16" and it should be enough to figure out the distances. I did the map exactly the way we randomize it (top left is 1 and bottom right is 12 on D12). The spaces between the houses are big enough for scout titans and super heavies to pass but bigger titans are out of luck. There's probably too much terrain in the top left corner and too little elsewhere but I don't know how much terrain people usually have so I can't say for sure.

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Ginger

Post subject: Space Marine ideas

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 11:30 pm

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Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK

Ok, so your table has more terrain than originally implied, and would seem to be around 40% covered, which others believe is about right. Personally, I think you may be right about the top left corner of the table being overcrowded, but your diagram does demonstrate one point I was suggesting, that the approach seems to have resulted in most of the features being positioned on or near the table edges (there are 6/7 features within 15 cms / 6" of at least on edge). Most tables I have seen would have the centre a little better covered, which would probably result in different game styles - for example, the "southern" table edge has only one feature to hide behind, which would be a significant disadvantage to armies that are vulnerable to shooting - like the Eldar.

Objectives
In this case, if deploying the Eldar on the northern edge, I would expect the SM blitz either to be dead center, or 18" in from the East (just south of the wood). I would assume one or both of the SM objectives might be placed over to the Western edge of the table (which should be easier for the Eldar infantry to defend), so the SM player might 'double-think' here and put one on each flank, or even concentrate them in the relatively open eastern side of the table to draw the Eldar away from cover (which is what I think I would be tempted to do).

As the Eldar, I think would be tempted to put the Blitz in the centre of the right hand "village". Depending upon whether the SM put an objective in the western table half, I would probably place my Eldar objectives just south of the central wood and then just south of the western village (using the Western SM objective as a Gate), or just south of the central village and 30 cms west of it south of the Wood, again, using the western most SM objective as a gate.

Garrisons
If possible, I would be looking to garrison the Rangers either in the northern edges of the wood / buildings in the centre of the table, or more likely in buildings / wood around the gate on the mid-left of the table.

Deployment
Because the Smurfs have no deep strike threats (teleporters / air assaults), I would deploy quite loosely, defending the blitz with the weaker guardians in the buildings around it and the Nightspinners (placed in the right-hand corner behind the wood). The two Storm serpents would be placed in the gap in the centre, flanked by the Falcons behind the buildings on each side of them, and the bikes would either be placed to the left of the left-hand Falcons or the right of the right-hand Falcons, depending upon where the SM objectives were in the Eldar table half. If there were deep strike threats, I would strongly consider "castling" the Eldar forces tightly around the Blitz, with the Rangers deployed as a screen in front of them to prevent / deter such attacks.

Strategy
I would expect the bulk of SM threat to attack in the middle - Eastern side of the table, and would be looking to counter attack their western flank through the gap in the woods in the centre of the table. As outlined earlier, I would probably stay put in the deployment zone until a suitable target came within reach of my main strike forces out of the gates at the end of turn 1 and early in turn 2. Ideally, I would be looking to use the big Guardians and Warp Spiders to occupy / threaten the southern wood and central buildings in such a way as to maximise the use of cover to inhibit SM shooting while providing a platform for hard-hitting assaults towards the SM blitz, with the 'Spears on one or other of their flanks opposing / eating up the Warhounds. The other formations should be in close proximity to support these assaults prepping the targets with BMs while staying as far as possible out of reach of the SM forces for as long as possible. I would definitely try to use the Avatar in turn 2 and possibly the Farseer to make combined attacks to ensure the complete destruction of SM formations both to reduce the SM activations and reduce the possibilities of last minute Objective grabs.

Final thoughts
- Do you ever swap sides and play Eldar, or have you always played SMs in all the SM victories you cite?
- Equally, is your opponent as experienced as you?
- Finally, if you do play the game, I would love to know how it went.

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